Pre-Flashpoint Superman; Was it that bad?

[Doctor Know]

I remember it being Superman in particular. Then he wrestled with it for like four issues. I think I would have been a little annoyed if I followed the issues as they came out.

For Tomorrow also took way too long to come around, but in the end I think they were both good stories.

For Tomorrow had a good mystery in volume 1, but what normally happens is the resolution of the mystery is not as good as the chase to solve it.

[Doctor Know]

Rather than starting a new topic.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly run on the comic? I wanted to broaden my Superman pallet, but don't know where to take it from here.

[manofsteel1979]

Rather than starting a new topic.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly run on the comic? I wanted to broaden my Superman pallet, but don't know where to take it from here.

I really liked that era, particularly from the October 1999 issues through the end of the Our Worlds At War in Summer 2001. Some of the art was wonky,however the stories were mostly strong. After that, the 2000's were spotty at best.

[exile001]

Rather than starting a new topic.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly run on the comic? I wanted to broaden my Superman pallet, but don't know where to take it from here.

It's one of my favorite eras, so I'd highly recommend it. Be warned, there is TONS of it! You'll be reading for quite a while to get through it all, as you really need to read all different titles because the sub-plots run throughout and there are quite a few crossovers.

[Rod G]

Don't get me started on the whole "Luthor as President" Fiasco.


I'm glad that particular stain has been erased.

[DochaDocha]

It's one of my favorite eras, so I'd highly recommend it. Be warned, there is TONS of it! You'll be reading for quite a while to get through it all, as you really need to read all different titles because the sub-plots run throughout and there are quite a few crossovers.

Echoing this sentiment. The early 2000's were an enjoyable time for me. I used to be able to find collected versions of their runs at the library and Borders (remember those?) stores.

[Kid A]

Don't get me started on the whole "Luthor as President" Fiasco.


I'm glad that particular stain has been erased.

Yeah it would be far more in-character for Luthor to be the guy who funds and puppet masters the president.

[Cypher]

Rather than starting a new topic.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly run on the comic? I wanted to broaden my Superman pallet, but don't know where to take it from here.

Why not just read 90's Superman.

Dan Jurgens is a really good Superman writer. His Aliens/Superman crossover was very cool. Jack Guices' art is more towards the realistic side and had lots of emotion compared to artsits of the time and drew a very tall powerful Superman on Action. The 90s where the last time anything interesting happened with Supes. Even Electrosupes was entertaining. But if you dont like that go for early 90s.

Lots of heart warming stories, as a SUPERMAN book should have. Stories about equality, doing the right thing, etc. Told from a very humanistic and ideal point at the same time. Theres even some more extreme cases, like how the Toyman started kidnapping and killing children if you dig that.

Theres also one story where Superman flys over to Gotham to help out because Batmans not around. I promise, theres lots of gems. Certainly more interesting than what the 00s had, though those arent terrible either.

[Agent Z]

Yeah it would be far more in-character for Luthor to be the guy who funds and puppet masters the president.

I thought fans hated Post-Crisis Lex for being more of a hands-off guy than his Silver Age counterpart. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from these boards.

[Jim Kelly]

I refer to that reboot era as the "Imaginary Age," because virtually every major event story was a reworking of a previous imaginary story. The wonderful thing about imaginary stories is they allow the writers to try out ideas and explore their possibilities without the risk of making something continuity that they will have a hard time getting out of later. The downside of the "Imaginary Age" was all the contortions the writers had to go through to get out of the imaginary concept they had anchored in continuity.

The idea of Luthor as POTUS in itself is not a bad idea and made a good imaginary story. There were, however, a few problems this created in continuity. One is that it set a timeframe on the story--which later has to be retconned somehow unless all of Superman is set in real time and Superman in fact lived for twenty years between 1986 and 2006, along with his supporting cast. Another is that it became a critique of the real US presidency--even if that wasn't intended, it led to that inference. A related problem was that the very real situation in the world was now given this perverse interpretation in the Superman world. Just as in WW II, the real world needed a Superman who could be heroic and inspirational--in the aftermath of 9/11, the world wanted Superman as its symbol for moral rectitude--but you had this other story in the comics getting in the way of that.

The tendency of latterday comics to tease out a story for months or even years allowed President Luthor to linger long past being an effective story idea and cast a pall over the whole Superman world. Yet if the writers had the sense to tell the story in an economic and timely manner, it might not have been this drag on Superman's credo for Truth, Justice and the American Way.

That's my main critique of the whole "Imaginary Age." The writers didn't know how to get into and out of a story with agility and vitality. Every good story was made a torture by going on and on and on without resolution for an exhausting period of time, until all the fun and entertainment value was drained from it.

[Thor2014]

I recall "Back in Action" and "The 3rd Kryptonian" being kinda bleh, but I thought "Up Up and Away" was fantastic.

I loved 'Up Up and Away.' The rest wasn't terrible, but UUaA was clearly the highlight of the run.

[DochaDocha]

That's my main critique of the whole "Imaginary Age." The writers didn't know how to get into and out of a story with agility and vitality. Every good story was made a torture by going on and on and on without resolution for an exhausting period of time, until all the fun and entertainment value was drained from it.

I feel a lot of stories today also tend to drag on. Every story takes a year or more to tell. I was enjoying Azz's Wonder Woman for 2+ years, but once it started feeling like the story was coming to a conclusion 4 or 5 months ago, and is still going on, I'm content to wait for it to be collected.

Looking back at Prez Luthor, I feel like it's too much to believe that particular guy could be elected president. Haha, I get it, we've had a lot of bad people elected to public office, but that's just too much negative baggage for me to believe that people would just accept it unless Superman himself became a huge public pariah that anyone who was opposed to that guy would gain trust. I know the animated movie tried to point out that Luthor is so brilliant, he solved various social problems, such as unemployment, but that's just not believable for me, either.

[Ray1967]

Byrne's Man of Steel was a good reboot in 86 and I really enjoyed the mini-series.

World of Krypton min-series from around the same time was a good read, not a Superman story per say, but enjoyable.

Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow, was mentioned good as well.

The Death of Superboy which was in Superman and concluding in the Legion if Superheroes in the 80's was great as well, with Superman having a moral decision on what to do with General Zod and Company after they wiped out Superboys pocket universe Earth.

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[Kandor Rising]

When John Byrne had Superman kill, it proved he didn't understand Superman and everything else he wrote was fundamentally flawed. Especially since Alan Moore showed that if Superman kills he ceases to be Superman and Alan Moore is a far better writer on his worst day that John Byrne was on his best.

Dan Jurgens has a tendency to make Superman a mopey, emo bitch. Jeph Loeb did Big Dumb Farmboy Clark way too much, but some of his stories were really good. Joe Kelley did a better job on Action Comics.

I liked John's first Superman run, but the New Krypton arc sucked. Why would Superman think that 100k Kryptonians on Earth would work? That's where Superman Unbound was better than the source material, he found them their own planet.

[Doctor Know]

When John Byrne had Superman kill, it proved he didn't understand Superman and everything else he wrote was fundamentally flawed. Especially since Alan Moore showed that if Superman kills he ceases to be Superman and Alan Moore is a far better writer on his worst day that John Byrne was on his best.

Dan Jurgens has a tendency to make Superman a mopey, emo bitch. Jeph Loeb did Big Dumb Farmboy Clark way too much, but some of his stories were really good. Joe Kelley did a better job on Action Comics.

I liked John's first Superman run, but the New Krypton arc sucked. Why would Superman think that 100k Kryptonians on Earth would work? That's where Superman Unbound was better than the source material, he found them their own planet.

Moore and Byrne had completely different situations going in to their respective stories. Moore's was essentially an elseworld's story. A what if, since COIE had retconned the Silver and Bronze Age (as well as the Golden age) Supes out of existence. Moore's story was a farewell of sorts to those classic stories that had been running since 1958. Nothing Moore did in his book mattered since the larger DC verse wouldn't reflect any of the changes.

Byrne was writing the Superman monthlies. He was on the project 2 years before leaving, due to disagreements with the editors at DC over his Superman. With regard to their being 2 Supermen DC was producing at the time. The one DC sells (Silver/Bronze age) and the one they write (Byrne's). Byrne did have an understanding of the character and his stories and amount of research he did prior to helming Supes reflect that.

I haven't read Jurgens 90's run on the comic, except Death of Superman. He didn't seem emo in those stories. Haven't read Loeb or Kelley's runs yet.

Agree about Johns somewhat. He's hit and miss with me when it comes to Supes. The only stories I like of his are Last Son, Legion of 3 World and The Lightning Saga. New Krypton imploded on itself and his other stories seem derivative of stories that have come before that were told better originally.