Pre-Flashpoint Superman; Was it that bad?

[manofsteel1979]

An observation:

Most of these comments are about the Post-Crisis era of Superman, i.e. John Byrne's run and everything that spun out of it- which really did influence the entire DCU for years and years.

However, the thread was asking about Pre-Flashpoint Superman, which I don't think is the same thing as Post-Crisis.

Sure, there was never a reboot, but there was never a reboot between the Golden and Silver Age versions of the character either, just a lot of retcons and changes in style or tone that made the character very different.
That's how I see the difference between the Post-Crisis and Pre-Flashpoint versions of Superman. Some of the same ideas are in play, like asking what Superman's relationship to humanity is, but the character, world and tone are not really the same thing.

Post-Crisis, he was very human in that as Clark, he really fit in for probably the first time. Perfect example- The Man of Steel has Clark playing on his high school football team.
Pre-Flashpoint Superman has a scene in Secret Origin where he breaks another kid's arm playing a sport, and only really ever felt at ease hanging out with the Legion of Super-Heroes (who Post-Crisis Superman only met as an adult).

I really love Post-Crisis Superman, how well his stories tied together- heck, how unified the whole DCU was at the time.
Pre-Flashpoint, there's ups and downs, but in general I dislike everything from New Krypton onward.

I think the Post-Flashpoint reboot was a much needed addition of energy to Superman's world. Action Comics #1-18 is one of my favorite versions of the character, and Greg Pak's stuff is pretty awesome too. Superman hasn't been great, but parts of it have been entertaining here and there. I usually think the ideas at least are good. Contrast Pre-Flashpoint, where my normal reaction to everything was boredom.

Of course, there were good points to Pre-Flashpoint Superman too, but for my money not for the few years leading up to Flashpoint.

All fair points. Truth be told, Post-Crisis Superman ended when the Post-Crisis creators that had worked on the character in some capacity since 1987 left the books(I.e. Jurgens and Ordway), which I would say September 1999. Loeb and Kelly's run usually is lumped in with that era as there were no major long lasting continuity changes and they still referenced the previous era fairly regularly,however they played a little fast and loose with the "rules" of Post-Crisis and the stories had more of a bronze age vibe. That version was 2000-late 2003. Then Post SUPERMAN #200 we had the mini-boot that attempted to tie Birthright into the main titles that lasted from 2004 until INFINITE CRISIS. Then of course, post Infinite Crisis and Geoff Johns' run .That version more or less was the one that ended in 2011.

So in reality we had:

POST CRISIS: Begun 1986 (MAN OF STEEL mini series)
Ended 1999 (Superman (vol2)#150

POST CRISIS REDUX: Begun January 2000 (SUPERMAN:Y2K #1)
: Ended Dec 2003 (SUPERMAN(vol2)#200)

PRE-INFINITE CRISIS: begun January 2004 ( SUPERMAN #201)
ended 2006 (ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #649)

PRE-FLASHPOINT: Begun 2006 (SUPERMAN #650)
Ended august 2011 (SUPERMAN#714)

So really when talking of Post-Crisis to Post-Flashpoint...we are talking of four versions in reality.

[Jim Kelly]

I would say that the Byrne reboot ended when he and Marv Wolfman left.

[eternaldream24]

Im hopping on this thread bc I want to start reading superman pre flashpoint, more specifically post crisis redux or pre infinite crisis but like others I've heard some of the stories are bad. I've already read and enjoyed secret origins, brainiac and last son. I've been told the new krypton story line is next and that it is bad. Any advice on what to read?

From what I've read on this thread 90s and early 2000s superman is the best. Do you recommend one over the other and where should I start?

[DochaDocha]

I'm not an expert on these eras, but overall, I probably preferred the early 2000's over the early 1990's, mostly because I think the mid-90's featured a lot of stories meant to make big headlines, including the Death of Superman, his return, his wedding, the Electric phase, and others, but the early 2000's felt much more stable and normalized to me. It was as though they got a lot of stuff out of the system and tried to tell more straightforward Superman stories.

As for where to start, though, I'd probably just say read chronologically.

[SJNeal]

All fair points. Truth be told, Post-Crisis Superman ended when the Post-Crisis creators that had worked on the character in some capacity since 1987 left the books(I.e. Jurgens and Ordway), which I would say September 1999. Loeb and Kelly's run usually is lumped in with that era as there were no major long lasting continuity changes and they still referenced the previous era fairly regularly,however they played a little fast and loose with the "rules" of Post-Crisis and the stories had more of a bronze age vibe. That version was 2000-late 2003. Then Post SUPERMAN #200 we had the mini-boot that attempted to tie Birthright into the main titles that lasted from 2004 until INFINITE CRISIS. Then of course, post Infinite Crisis and Geoff Johns' run .That version more or less was the one that ended in 2011.

So in reality we had:

POST CRISIS: Begun 1986 (MAN OF STEEL mini series)
Ended 1999 (Superman (vol2)#150

POST CRISIS REDUX: Begun January 2000 (SUPERMAN:Y2K #1)
: Ended Dec 2003 (SUPERMAN(vol2)#200)

PRE-INFINITE CRISIS: begun April 2004 ( SUPERMAN #200)
ended 2006 (ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #649)

PRE-FLASHPOINT: Begun 2006 (SUPERMAN #650)
Ended august 2011 (SUPERMAN#714)

So really when talking of Post-Crisis to Post-Flashpoint...we are talking of four versions in reality.

I love this break down! Great post, thanks!

[BBally]

Thanks. And I'm writing Superman Grounded off my to-read list.

I'd say avoid Volume 1 (which is the JMS run) and glance at Volume 2, which was the beginning of Chris Roberson's run during that arc as he actually made the story arc readable, which makes many around here wish he was given full range on the title when Grounded ended but then Flashpoint happened.

[manofsteel1979]

I love this break down! Great post, thanks!

You are welcome...but I noticed an error in MY original post when you quoted it. I went back and edited my post.

[manofsteel1979]

I'd say avoid Volume 1 (which is the JMS run) and glance at Volume 2, which was the beginning of Chris Roberson's run during that arc as he actually made the story arc readable, which makes many around here wish he was given full range on the title when Grounded ended but then Flashpoint happened.

I was one of them. I wish to God that he kept the SUPERMAN gig alongside Grant on ACTION when the New 52 launched. They would have worked well together. Sadly we will likely never see him do more Superman again,at least not while the current people are in place.

[LifeIsILL]

Pre-52 Superman was awesome. Don't know about this new guy though.

[superiorcrisis]

I like both of versions, so I don't know how helpful i'll be in this discussion. I think pre-flashpoint was better, but that's not a fair comparison. Pre-flashpoint had over a thousand stories, so you'll only think of the stories that stand out, not mediocre stories. New 52 has had less than a hundred, so you'll think of them all.

In regards to grounded, while I don't think JMS did anything horrible in his run like a lot of people do, it wasn't that interesting either. However, I think the Chris Roberson portion served as a great finale to pre-flashpoint superman, tellng us what would have happened had the series continued, all the way to DC one million, which it seems to clearly be connected to. And as a bonus, it doesn't have Mr. Mxyzptlk kill all the characters!

[Francisco]

Pre-flashpoint Superman had his moments but new 52 Superman simply blows him out of the water. New 52 Superman is just more fun more interesting more vital and dynamic. Compared to new 52 pre-flashpoint was a doormat. although recently I read birthright and loved it. KICKED the crap out of BYRNE's MAN OF STEEL. imo

[adkal]

Not to step on your toes Miss Lane but the tragedy of Bludhaven happened after Batman gave his little speech up on the moon during Infinite Crisis.

Okay, but there are other examples correct? Furthermore, if Batman's statement is later disproved then it suggests that Pre-Flashpoint Superman wasn't the dud that the quote is often trotted out as proof that he was. It means that anyone who uses that quote to define all of Post-Crisis Superman is doing him a disservice.

One of my favourite 'examples of Superman inspiring people into action' was in Morrison's World War III arc over in JLA. Pretty much several billion people all stepping up to help him.

[BBally]

I like both of versions, so I don't know how helpful i'll be in this discussion. I think pre-flashpoint was better, but that's not a fair comparison. Pre-flashpoint had over a thousand stories, so you'll only think of the stories that stand out, not mediocre stories. New 52 has had less than a hundred, so you'll think of them all.

In regards to grounded, while I don't think JMS did anything horrible in his run like a lot of people do, it wasn't that interesting either. However, I think the Chris Roberson portion served as a great finale to pre-flashpoint superman, tellng us what would have happened had the series continued, all the way to DC one million, which it seems to clearly be connected to. And as a bonus, it doesn't have Mr. Mxyzptlk kill all the characters!

That bonus gets my vote.

[Blacksun]

I was one of them. I wish to God that he kept the SUPERMAN gig alongside Grant on ACTION when the New 52 launched. They would have worked well together. Sadly we will likely never see him do more Superman again,at least not while the current people are in place.

I heard only good things about Chris Roberson superman grounded, if he did well with JMS plot he could have done even better with his own ideas

[Sacred Knight]

He made it readable, but that's not really saying a whole lot considering how bad it was when he took over. I wouldn't have been opposed to seeing him get a chance to write Superman with his own ideas, but don't hold it as the mother of all missed opportunities that it didn't happen. Admittedly I was also turned off by his unprofessional twitter storm when he opted to leave DC. His reasons were respectable, but his public airing out of grievances was not.