Throwdown: Amazing Spider-Man 2 VS Spider-Man 3

[Garrote]

Raimi Peter knew how to stop the train. He didn't need somebody to do it for him.

Uh? You mean in Spiderman 2? Man, that...that was brute force! hahaha

Yeah, he finally used multiple weblines to stop it, but you don't need a PHD to figure out "More webs, more strength" xD

Garfield Spidey on the other hand managed to solve the (absurd) mistery of the (absurd) subway secret lab :P

[Kevinroc]

Uh? You mean in Spiderman 2? Man, that...that was brute force! hahaha

Yeah, he finally used multiple weblines to stop it, but you don't need a PHD to figure out "More webs, more strength" xD

Garfield Spidey on the other hand managed to solve the (absurd) mistery of the (absurd) subway secret lab :P

Man, that was comic book physics at its finest.

I think I ranted enough about the Secret Subway Lab in this thread.

(Stupid movies and their obsession with Richard Parker. Ugh...)

[DCordo74]

Spider-Man 3 is fell apart as a story. And its failure is interesting to discuss. What went wrong? Was the studio insistence on Venom just too much for the film? Was trying to make a personal connection between Sandman and Peter a haphazard retcon that the film didn't need? Was the rush job to have Mary Jane get kidnapped yet again too tiring after 2 films? Was the butler scene too much for the Harry story? Was there just too much going on?

Spider-Man 3 is interesting because of the conflict between Sony and Raimi, and Raimi's taking the blame for how it turned out.

But all of these problems feel lesser in comparison to the major cluster**** that is the Amazing Spider-Man 2. A lot of the problems of ASM 2 are because of problems with ASM 1.

Let us count the ways.

The parents subplot was still horrible and ultimately went nowhere. (And originally, Richard was supposed to be alive and appeared to comfort Peter at Gwen's grave.) And let's not forget to mention that Richard has a secret lab in an abandoned subway station.

Harry Osborn, never mentioned AT ALL in the first film, is suddenly Peter's long lost BFF. And he was dying so rapidly. Why did he look like he had "one foot in the grave already"? Norman lived a long time. Harry has plenty of money. This part didn't make any sense.

Characters are mentioned but never appear on screen. This includes J. Jonah Jameson, who only appears via an e-mail. If the Bugle is so important, where is it? But Jonah might interfere with that important Richard Parker plot.

Electro. Just... Electro...

The Rhino.

The film absolves Peter from the guilt of Gwen's death. She CHOSE to be there. She KNEW the risks.

Speaking of misunderstanding the emotional aspects of Gwen's death, MJ was removed from the films. MJ's role at the end of TNGSD is what gives that ending just a little bit of hope in what would otherwise be a rather grim tale. The idea that Peter isn't alone. That even the seemingly emotionally distant party girl is there for him. But her very existence was such a threat to "the story of Peter and Gwen" that she had to be cut. (But god forbid they do cut that all-important Richard Parker story and his magic blood and his secret underground subway lab.)

What a waste of Chris Cooper as Norman Osborn. He's in it for less than five minutes before he dies.

The tacked on Harry as Goblin battle after the audience was already emotionally exhausted from the Electro fight. Harry literally swoops in out of nowhere so he can kill Gwen.

I'm going to mention Peter's obsession with Richard Parker again. Because the movie never let you forget it.

Why was Dr. Kafka changed to an evil male stereotypical mad German scientist? Did not do the research on that one as comic Dr. Kafka was based on a woman that was insulted by the film's "portrayal" of her. (Source: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/...-life-dr-kafka )

What was the point of the Richard Parker stuff? (I'm not dropping this because the film's didn't drop it.)

What happened to Uncle Ben's killer? This plot was completely dropped after the first film.

Ugh... ASM 2 is terrible...

Edit: More Richard Parker stuff. At the graduation ceremony (real subtle foreshadowing on Gwen's death, movie), when Aunt May says Uncle Ben should be there, and Peter laments his bio parents should be there too. I wanted to slap Peter in that moment. I wanted somebody to slap him for that comment.

My thoughts precisely.

I also...didn't like...Andrew Garfield's Peter. He was too much of a "cool guy", Peter doesn't need to be an uber loser like Raimi's Peter. But the man is NOT a slick, skateboarding, Hollister model. He just never seemed to "understand" Peter in the comics, even though he said he was a fan. He NEVER felt like Peter Parker, to me. Don't get me wrong, I freaking adore Andrew Garfield, the man is a fantastic actor. But even an Oscar worthy actor can't overcome Sony's twisted perceptions of Spider-man. It felt like the writing was trying to check mark off certain demographics to appeal to. Spider-man makes jokes. Check for Spider-man fans. Cheesy one-dimensional obsessive stalker love. Check for Twilight fangirls. Mary Sue love interest. Check for feminists. Teenage heartthrob lead. Check for horny ladies and gents. He didn't feel like a fully formed character (like Raimi's Peter), he felt like a mosaic. He would feel human to me for brief fleeting moments, and that was with Uncle Ben. But we all know how that ended. I get that people liked him, and that's their right. But I just didn't find him appealing. He didn't feel like he had any heart. He was just a douche bag. And Peter isn't perfect, and can be a total dick sometimes. But daaaaaaamn. I am soooooo happy that **** ended. I swore after having to sit through ASM 2 twice I would NEVER see another Amazing Spider-man movie again. Ugh. Screw Richard Parker. WHO GIVES A ****?!?!?!

Don't even get me started on the B.S. Emma and Webb spread about Mary Jane so people would hate on her and worship Gwen. UUUUUUUUUGH...now I have to hear a whole bunch of ignorant B.S. about Gwen and Mary Jane's characters because of it.

[Mister Mets]

One of the weakest plot point for The Amazing Spider-Man 2 was Max "I want to be seen" Dillon. That was like worst adaptation of a comic book character in amovie, right after Dr. Kafka in The Amazing Spider-Man 2.

I do think that Electro was the worst realized villain to pop up in any of the Spider-Man films.

[Kuwagaton]

Spider-Man 3 is interesting because it combines everything bad about the superhero movie genre and yet... I saw it in theaters twice. I remember the first half hour or so being very much in line with the first two, and then things got weird. I think I saw it again to see if I could make sense of it, frankly. I just Googled to jog my memory and... what the hell was up with those Ukranians? Man. There was just so much that I didn't want or care about.

The Amazing movies were not perfect at all, but I really enjoyed them. I liked that Garfield was actually charismatic as Peter, although his accent was a little weird. His Spider-Man reminded me of Casey Jones from TMNT. Stone was not only extremely good looking but charismatic as well, and when she came together with Garfield there was serious chemistry. I still wonder if they dated in real life just for some method acting thing. I loved the arc they had where they broke up and came back together. Peter is us, and I could totally relate to that.

As for how that ended, well, of course I knew. I also knew Bucky was the Winter Soldier, that Wanda and Pietro would join the good guys, Star Lord wouldn't die, etc. But that scene where everything looks said and done, and then Harry Goblin cackles... creepy. And it was great seeing that with someone who had no idea.

My only serious knock is that Electro sucked. Max Dillon was just a stupid guy version of Tim Burton's Catwoman with powers that made him really annoying to feature in a somewhat grounded movie.

The film absolves Peter from the guilt of Gwen's death. She CHOSE to be there. She KNEW the risks.

Speaking of misunderstanding the emotional aspects of Gwen's death, MJ was removed from the films. MJ's role at the end of TNGSD is what gives that ending just a little bit of hope in what would otherwise be a rather grim tale. The idea that Peter isn't alone. That even the seemingly emotionally distant party girl is there for him. But her very existence was such a threat to "the story of Peter and Gwen" that she had to be cut. (But god forbid they do cut that all-important Richard Parker story and his magic blood and his secret underground subway lab.)

What a waste of Chris Cooper as Norman Osborn. He's in it for less than five minutes before he dies.

The tacked on Harry as Goblin battle after the audience was already emotionally exhausted from the Electro fight. Harry literally swoops in out of nowhere so he can kill Gwen.

I'm going to mention Peter's obsession with Richard Parker again. Because the movie never let you forget it.

These happened to jump out at me.

1. Peter promised to stay away from Gwen. I certainly want to avoid derailing the thread with a discussion about how we as men are to protect women (or how we're not, whatever) but the fact is that he made a promise to not be with her, and breaking it was a clear factor in her death. They'd decided to live for themselves and for each other, but it swiftly ended in the worst way. Peter didn't snap her neck but death came from being with him and he couldn't do a thing to stop it, which saves him from being a total fool but doesn't take the blood from his hands. He's fresh out of high school and his girlfriend died, there's no way he's gonna be like "she made her decision" and leave it without a LOT of hurt.

2. He does get his feet back under him, but I think throwing in MJ removes some of the weight from the death. For him it could be a year but for us it's 3 minutes.

3. I'm glad they didn't milk Norman. Movie was long enough.

4. Harry was such a crazy little dong, lol. You might even call him a villain.

5. Richard was his dad. That said, I don't remember if anyone did slap him for being a brat but someone should have.

[Kevinroc]

These happened to jump out at me.

1. Peter promised to stay away from Gwen. I certainly want to avoid derailing the thread with a discussion about how we as men are to protect women (or how we're not, whatever) but the fact is that he made a promise to not be with her, and breaking it was a clear factor in her death. They'd decided to live for themselves and for each other, but it swiftly ended in the worst way. Peter didn't snap her neck but death came from being with him and he couldn't do a thing to stop it, which saves him from being a total fool but doesn't take the blood from his hands. He's fresh out of high school and his girlfriend died, there's no way he's gonna be like "she made her decision" and leave it without a LOT of hurt.

2. He does get his feet back under him, but I think throwing in MJ removes some of the weight from the death. For him it could be a year but for us it's 3 minutes.

3. I'm glad they didn't milk Norman. Movie was long enough.

4. Harry was such a crazy little dong, lol. You might even call him a villain.

5. Richard was his dad. That said, I don't remember if anyone did slap him for being a brat but someone should have.

1: Obviously Peter is going to hurt. But the movie itself absolves Peter of the guilt. If Gwen didn't insert herself into the Electro fight, she wouldn't have been there when Harry showed up.

If your argument is going to be that Peter wouldn't have been able to win that fight without Gwen, then that's a prime example of the movie selling Peter short to prop up Gwen. Peter should be able to handle Electro just fine on his own. Only Amazing Peter can't. Maybe there should have been a youtube video about beating Electro.

2: Who said anything about "throwing" MJ in?

This is a problem also put in by her lack of an appearance in the first film. She should have been around his social circle in some capacity. But Peter had no social circle in these films beyond Gwen. Even Flash Thompson disappeared.

3: Should have cut out all that Richard Parker stuff. Would have solved so much.

4: That doesn't really answer my point.

5: Richard Parker is barely relevant in any Spider-Man comics. But somehow the foundations of a series of films were on this character that nobody gave a damn about, and that even the (now former) Sony co-chair knew was a terrible subplot that ultimately went nowhere. Just say "no" to Richard Parker.

[Kuwagaton]

I'm not sure what you mean by absolving Peter of guilt. If he feels terrible, I think the point is made. Having him, say, try to save her and ironically kill her was kind of strange for the comics since there's not much gained in him failing when it mattered more than it ever had before. I'm also glad that Gwen helped because MJ Dunst was so worthless. So were Betty, Raimi Gwen, and Neighbor Girl. Seems strange to want Peter to have more of a role in killing his own girlfriend but finding him less competent for needing her help beating Electro.

And the point about Harry is that he wasn't a cool guy or good friend at all. So yeah, he showed up at the worst possible moment and trolled like there was no tomorrow. Which there wasn't, because the new Spidey is a supporting player in another movie. Not that I necessarily wanted a third movie, those never turn out well.

[Kevinroc]

I'm not sure what you mean by absolving Peter of guilt. If he feels terrible, I think the point is made. Having him, say, try to save her and ironically kill her was kind of strange for the comics since there's not much gained in him failing when it mattered more than it ever had before. I'm also glad that Gwen helped because MJ Dunst was so worthless. So were Betty, Raimi Gwen, and Neighbor Girl. Seems strange to want Peter to have more of a role in killing his own girlfriend but finding him less competent for needing her help beating Electro.

And the point about Harry is that he wasn't a cool guy or good friend at all. So yeah, he showed up at the worst possible moment and trolled like there was no tomorrow. Which there wasn't, because the new Spidey is a supporting player in another movie. Not that I necessarily wanted a third movie, those never turn out well.

The usage of Harry at that moment was an example of poor pacing. Given how Gwen's death feels tacked on for the last few minutes of the movie, and Peter's recovery is magically rushed through, I don't know what else to call it.

They propped Gwen up to such an extant that Peter looked incompetent without her. Spider-Man is supposed to be smart. It's another example of how the production team didn't understand Spider-Man on a fundamental level. (And given the large emphasis on Richard Parker, I don't think I'm out of line saying these films didn't understand Spider-Man.)

[David Walton]

I still find SM3 enjoyable, warts and all. It has the Raimi charm, and I like the characters, even when they're at their worst. I understand why Peter's success is getting to his head, why MJ feels neglected, and what drives Harry to madness. The climax is a bit of a mess, but there's still something very tender and beautiful in Harry's sacrifice, Peter forgiving Sandman, and reconciling with MJ as the sun rises on them. I find it very in keeping with the kind of people Peter and MJ have shown themselves to be.

With ASM2, on the other hand, I don't get why Peter can/can't/can be with Gwen. Of course, this problem goes back to ASM, when they essentially wrote themselves in a corner by having Captain Stacy ask Peter to stay away instead from Gwen instead of giving his blessing. That changes the whole dynamic, where we end up with a Peter who's too much of an ******* to keep his promise to a dying man or to commit fully to the choice he's made to be with Gwen.

I don't get why Peter is friends with Harry, since they haven't seen each other in years and he's got a serial killer vibe. Nor do I get why Peter assumes it would be better for Harry to die than at least give his blood a shot.

Nor do I get Peter's obsession with Richard Parker and the way he slights Uncle Ben, the only father he's truly known. I cry every time in that scene in SM2 when ghost Uncle Ben asks for Peter's hand and he refuses it. That's powerful stuff.

By the end of Raimi's trilogy, I feel like Spider-Man has both lost and accomplished a great many things. By the end of ASM2, I feel like everyone would be better off without Spider-Man.

[Lasse]

Yeah, I think you made some excellent points here. Raimi's Spider-Man feels tighter, and that they knew what they wanted to do with their story and the characters. Even if I don't agree with for example having Sandman being the murderer of Uncle Ben, I think it was well thought out. Webb's Amazing Spider-Man films were just a mess in so many ways. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone were both great, but I get the feeling that they didn't know where they wanted to go with the story and even what this "untold story" even was.

[Kuwagaton]

The usage of Harry at that moment was an example of poor pacing. Given how Gwen's death feels tacked on for the last few minutes of the movie, and Peter's recovery is magically rushed through, I don't know what else to call it.

They propped Gwen up to such an extant that Peter looked incompetent without her. Spider-Man is supposed to be smart. It's another example of how the production team didn't understand Spider-Man on a fundamental level. (And given the large emphasis on Richard Parker, I don't think I'm out of line saying these films didn't understand Spider-Man.)

I don't know what you mean by tacked on, either. Pretty sure they had the idea to kill Gwen from even as far back as the first movie. That's an unfortunate point of featuring her character, but set up by the death of her father. I dug the tease of how they had a big bridge scene that she survived. I started doubting she'd die when I felt she was supposed to, so I give them props for that.

And frankly, I didn't think about or pay attention to Richard Parker all that much. I guess he was a big deal in the movie but to me not the type of thing I thought about over the better and worse elements.

[Kevinroc]

I don't know what you mean by tacked on, either. Pretty sure they had the idea to kill Gwen from even as far back as the first movie. That's an unfortunate point of featuring her character, but set up by the death of her father. I dug the tease of how they had a big bridge scene that she survived. I started doubting she'd die when I felt she was supposed to, so I give them props for that.

And frankly, I didn't think about or pay attention to Richard Parker all that much. I guess he was a big deal in the movie but to me not the type of thing I thought about over the better and worse elements.

I mean in terms of the film's horrible pacing, Gwen's death comes as a last minute "swerve." They obviously wanted to do "The Night Gwen Stacy Died," but just like everything else, they screwed it up.

And nice to see how big an impact the Richard Parker stuff was. That valuable screentime could have been used for anything else, like the characters actually relevant to Spider-Man. But who needs J. Jonah Jameson to show up in a Spider-Man movie when one e-mail suffices, am I right? Why would you need Mary Jane to appear when we've already got a girl in the movie?

Yeesh.

[Lasse]

Exactly. And I'm sure that the only reason that we didn't get to see Jonah is that they knew that there was no way to match J.K Simmons in that part. I'm sure there is a way, but they kind of made a point of not trying to repeat Raimi's films...and somehow they did in a lot of ways after all.

[David Walton]

Exactly. And I'm sure that the only reason that we didn't get to see Jonah is that they knew that there was no way to match J.K Simmons in that part. I'm sure there is a way, but they kind of made a point of not trying to repeat Raimi's films...and somehow they did in a lot of ways after all.

I'm not entirely confident that a director who thinks Richard Parker is more important than Uncle Ben understands the significance of J Jonah Jameson anyway.

I picture a guy who's never read a Spider-Man comic in his life, gets handed a stack from the dollar bin, and comes away thinking that "Lifetheft" is the Master Planner Saga.

[Anubhavkumarc]

I'm not entirely confident that a director who thinks Richard Parker is more important than Uncle Ben understands the significance of J Jonah Jameson anyway.

I picture a guy who's never read a Spider-Man comic in his life, gets handed a stack from the dollar bin, and comes away thinking that "Lifetheft" is the Master Planner Saga.

If it continued, would we have seen Peter Parker No More storyline? I want to see it just for the LOLZ..