Civil War #1 Spoilers

[vitruvian]

...and so apparently this doesn't directly tie-in with CAPTAIN AMERICA; CIVIL WAR 2016, or does it in a not so subtle way?

Nothing in the comics, except explicit MCU tie-in comics such as Fury's Big Week, ties directly into any of the MCU movies. They are different worlds.

[vitruvian]

She told Tony that Black Panther said that he was detonating the bomb on Steve's orders, so she was lying (well, unless Black Panther is the one who was lying).

Yes, one of them needs to be lying... unless a third party bamboozled them both. Not like somebody good enough to make it look to T'Challa like Stark had the self-destruct set to go if the system was tampered with (which is clearly not the case in Stark's own view) couldn't have also faked a transmission to Hill (voice simulation included) claiming responsibility for doing it on Cap's orders, supposing somebody wanted to play both ends against the middle that far back.

[jackolover]

I didn't mind the first issue. I didn't expect much after all. I'm not sure why MJ and May are living in the Iron and Peter is in the Blue though. Doesn't make sense to me if people were allowed to choose which side to live on. Was nice seeing Ghost Rider and Punisher be part of the heroes who handled the Secret Invasion, though I'm not sure how Osborn got into an even higher position than director or SHIELD if he didn't fire the last shot in SI. Lot of holes in this alternate history, I wish it was explored more.

I think what people have to understand is that this is a Cap and Iron Man story, not an event story.



I think you're looking for the 1872 thread lol

Yes, I posted in the wrong thread.

You should have your book returned, then, or go see an ophtalmologist.

Black Panther clearly states: "Iron Man rigged the prison with a self-destruct. He just activated the system!". So unless you think Tony Stark was behind all that, Black Panther was lying.

Now, Maria Hill also clearly states that Black Panther set the base to auto-destruct and claimed he did it under Captain America's order. Given how we know Black Panther was lying about Tony Stark having activated the explosion, it doesn't really take a genius to see that Black Panther also lied about Steve Rogers ordering the explosion.

Only one person could have told both sides the same lie - that the other side set the bomb to explode. And the only person we saw using the console and hacking into it happened to be the same person who was in position to lie to both sides:

Black Panther.

You can accept it or not. But it doesn't change what was in your book.

I don't think it is a given who is lying at this stage, and to jump to conclusions don't you think it's a bit early for that?

I was under the impression that Maria Hill orchestrated the sides being at war.

Black Panther finds the bomb, tells Steve it's rigged to explode. Steve thinks Stark is behind it because, duh, it's his prison.

Stark, however, knows nothing of it because it wasn't him who put it there. So Maria Hill tells him Black Panther put it there under Steve's orders.

Maria Hill successfully turns Cap and Iron Man against each other, escalating the war. Either she's working for someone, or she's the one pulling strings. Either way, she lied, so she's hiding something.

And I think the one who fired the shot at Cap might actually be either Crossbones or a brainwashed Winter Soldier working for Hill or Red Skull.

What is Maria Hill, or who she works for, getting out of 6 years of Civil War going on and on?

Black Panther said Stark is behind the exploding bomb. Which, as we all know, is a lie. Ergo, he was lying.



Maria Hill tells Stark Black Panther told her, right before killing her, that he claimed he was doing it on Rogers' orders. We see that she is, in fact, in a pool of blood among dead agents as she says so. Ergo, you have no evidence that she's lying, while we know Black Panther was lying.

All the facts point at Black Panther being the liar and the one behind the war. There is no evidence that Hill was lying.



I would suggest you to do the latter, if you think I have done the former.

I suppose you could read it like that, that Steve was the bad guy and Panther went along with destroying the whole prison with a bomb, but saving who he could with Cloak, yet still taking Starks people out of the NZ. But it's so illogical.

The narrator says at that time there had to be a good guy and a bad guy, anything else was too monstrous. I think that's the clue, not that either Steve or Tony did this.

[Teste]

I don't think it is a given who is lying at this stage, and to jump to conclusions don't you think it's a bit early for that?

Didn't you say earlier...

and Hill was making stuff up, or collaborating with a 3rd person. How that could be misconstrued to be T'Challa, I don't know.

...? Wasn't that "jumping to conclusions"?

[jackolover]

Didn't you say earlier...



...? Wasn't that "jumping to conclusions"?

It was an idea, but I wasn't sure of it. You seem to be very sure of your conclusions. Not saying you're wrong, but just cautioning not to be too sure of anything just yet. If it turns out Cap orchestrated the bomb that caused all this demarcation for years, it would shock me.

[jackolover]

I think it's worth considering the possibility that Panther might have just assumed it was a self destruct sequence set by Stark because it was his prison.



Maria Hill assumed Black Panther set the bomb up because he was the one who discovered it at the time it was activated. It could very well be that both sides assumed the other set the bomb up when it was actually a third party that was responsible. Which would mean both sides would be telling the truth as far as they saw things, when actually they were seeing what a third party wanted them to see. Someone may have been manipulating things from the shadows.

And if Maria Hill did die among the other agents (I missed it but I'll take your word for it), then I'd definitely assume a third party is responsible in that case. I don't think Soule would suggest that either Black Panther or Maria Hill would be willing to mass murder any of the heroes, let alone a chunk of New York, no matter what.

I'm kind of interested to know who the sniper was. Steve mentioned only Bullseye is that precise, but he was only counting those on Stark's side. I mentioned Crossbones and Winter Soldier. Anyone else who could fit the bill?

From my reading of those Maria Hill panels, she appeared to be in the 42 and got beat up by Panther and that's why she was lying on the floor talking to Stark. Unless she got out, Hill could have died in the explosion of the prison, so presumably she has been dead this whole time. Don't know about the Panther. He could be dead or he teleported out with a frog.

[jackolover]

Nope. Maria Hill states clearly that Black Panther said he set the bomb to explode under Rogers' order. There isn't any room for assumptions there.



The arguments trying to defend a different theory are all fanfiction, as seen above.

There doesn't seem to be any reason for Maria Hill to make stuff up to tell Stark Cap ordered the self destruct bomb, because she looked like she was going to die. Or this was Maria being vindictive at the end before she died and blaming Cap so Stark will think Cap did it. There's too much unknowns at this stage to know one way or the other.

[Teste]

I suppose you could read it like that, that Steve was the bad guy and Panther went along with destroying the whole prison with a bomb

Out of curiosity, where have I said that Steve was the bad guy and ordered the Black Panther to destroy the whole prison?

[DuskHarlekin]

I suppose you could read it like that, that Steve was the bad guy and Panther went along with destroying the whole prison with a bomb.

I read it like that, but they where all bad guys both Steve and Tony sides.

[vitruvian]

There doesn't seem to be any reason for Maria Hill to make stuff up to tell Stark Cap ordered the self destruct bomb, because she looked like she was going to die. Or this was Maria being vindictive at the end before she died and blaming Cap so Stark will think Cap did it. There's too much unknowns at this stage to know one way or the other.

There are a bunch of possibilities:

1) T'Challa was lying and set things off for unknown reasons, probably also lying to Hill about Cap ordering it.

2) Hill is lying about it as she lies there bleeding out, for unknown reasons. Seems unlikely, I would agree.

3) A third party fools T'Challa about how Stark has the self-destruct set up, and also fakes a transmission from T'Challa to Hill (including faking his voice) about how he is doing it under Cap's orders. This would have to be somebody with an interest in keeping the two sides fighting. Since it's easier to think of any number of true bad guys with this kind of capability (e.g., Quasimodo, Machinesmith, any number of super-geniuses) who would have such an interest, than it is to think up a reason why T'Challa would want to keep the war going, this seems the most likely possibility to me.

[vitruvian]

I read it like that, but they where all bad guys both Steve and Tony sides.

That still leaves the question of which side wanted the bomb to go off and made it happen.

[jackolover]

Did anyone find it ironically twisted that Miriam Sharpe, the woman that pushed for the SHRA, was the mediator that wanted peace between the two fractions ?

6 years of division can wear down your resistance especially when the other guy, Cap, is so steadfast in his conviction, maybe she just didn't think it was productive to keep fighting? For Sharpe to do this mediating is like getting over the deaths concerned, for the better future outcome. It just seems like in WW2, we are seeing Russia negotiating with America for a ceasefire in Europe. You can't trust each other, but you have to stop sometime.

The other possibility is that everybody in Iron has to be convinced Cap set off that bomb killing 15 million people, and why Stark and Sharpe even came to the table is a mystery. They should have nothing to do with Rogers. Rogers should be like Stalin who nuked New York, to them.

There are a bunch of possibilities:

1) T'Challa was lying and set things off for unknown reasons, probably also lying to Hill about Cap ordering it.

2) Hill is lying about it as she lies there bleeding out, for unknown reasons. Seems unlikely, I would agree.

3) A third party fools T'Challa about how Stark has the self-destruct set up, and also fakes a transmission from T'Challa to Hill (including faking his voice) about how he is doing it under Cap's orders. This would have to be somebody with an interest in keeping the two sides fighting. Since it's easier to think of any number of true bad guys with this kind of capability (e.g., Quasimodo, Machinesmith, any number of super-geniuses) who would have such an interest, than it is to think up a reason why T'Challa would want to keep the war going, this seems the most likely possibility to me.

I got to agree with your last possibility. It would be horrifying if it was number 1.

This is becoming really unclear now. Teste may be right about Black Panther being the one to activate the bomb, but I can't figure why. The actual interaction between Hill and Panther is clearly left out for a reason.

If it were Black Panther who activated the bomb, why would he not have re emerged? He would have responsibilities to Wakanda, would he not? Would he really have put his wife in danger like that? Storm was part of the Anti-Regs.

I wonder if the skrulls had agents hidden within both sides. Maybe it was them who escalated the war?

Yeah, if it was the real Panther, I don't buy it. Panther was a Skrull, I could buy that, because the Skrulls could divide and conquer, but then the Panther Skrull would have been discovered in Secret Invasion later, like all the other Skrulls were exposed, so no more enmity. Something else happened here.

I doubt it's the Skrulls because the saboteur is still active. Why are people forgetting the fact that someone just tried to kill Rogers?

I'm not sure of the line of sight of that shooter. Rogers accusing that a sniper was aiming for him, and hitting Sharpe just seems off. The sniper could have hit Stark in that case.

Another interesting tidbit... the explosion took place six years ago.

Battleworld has been around for eight years.

Therefore, the events shown in the flashback actually happened on Battleworld two years after the domain now known as the Warzone was transported to Battleworld and the inhabitants' memories were altered to reflect that their world had always been there. So presumably, that would include this domain not having its own Thor, and associating Thor exclusively with Doom's Battleworld-wide police force. That being the case, who killed Bill Foster?

How does that explain that after this Civil War encounter, the Skrulls then invaded? Was it a little Invasion with just the New York Skrulls, because no battle fleet was involved because they didn't make it to Battleworld? But that really confuses this Domain. Did the demarcation between Blue and Iron happen 6 years ago, too, or sometime later. We really need a timeline just for this stuff.

There could still have been a Clor

Out of curiosity, where have I said that Steve was the bad guy and ordered the Black Panther to destroy the whole prison?

I am making a link between what Maria said Panther said to her. That may not be what you were intending, just what I was seeing if reading it that way.

I read it like that, but they where all bad guys both Steve and Tony sides.

There were too many unknowns before you could really take that serious.

[Teste]

3) A third party fools T'Challa about how Stark has the self-destruct set up, and also fakes a transmission from T'Challa to Hill (including faking his voice) about how he is doing it under Cap's orders. This would have to be somebody with an interest in keeping the two sides fighting. Since it's easier to think of any number of true bad guys with this kind of capability (e.g., Quasimodo, Machinesmith, any number of super-geniuses) who would have such an interest, than it is to think up a reason why T'Challa would want to keep the war going, this seems the most likely possibility to me.

The thing is, was it a transmission from Black Panther to Maria Hill?

We were told by Maria Hill that it was Black Panther who killed her soldiers (and probably made her bleed). While it's possible that he could have killed them through the walls, it's more likely that he shot them or attacked them directly in some other way. If he did attack them directly, that means he could have spoken directly to them without using a transmission. So it wouldn't be a matter of someone hacking the transmission.

Now, you could say that it wasn't Black Panther, just someone who looks like him (plenty of shapeshifters in the Marvel Universe, even if you don't use the Skrulls). You could say it was mind control (again, plenty of people capable of that).

But I think it would be interesting if it was Black Panther who decided to avoid a stalemate, and wanted to force people to fight until one side won.

[jackolover]

The thing is, was it a transmission from Black Panther to Maria Hill?

We were told by Maria Hill that it was Black Panther who killed her soldiers (and probably made her bleed). While it's possible that he could have killed them through the walls, it's more likely that he shot them or attacked them directly in some other way. If he did attack them directly, that means he could have spoken directly to them without using a transmission. So it wouldn't be a matter of someone hacking the transmission.

Now, you could say that it wasn't Black Panther, just someone who looks like him (plenty of shapeshifters in the Marvel Universe, even if you don't use the Skrulls). You could say it was mind control (again, plenty of people capable of that).

But I think it would be interesting if it was Black Panther who decided to avoid a stalemate, and wanted to force people to fight until one side won.

This particular alternate reality Civil War must have been really different for Panther to have another agenda to his obedience to Rogers in the original. It would mean either Panther or both Cap and Panther were out of character to the 616 versions, somehow, for this to go down as a result of those two. Tony Stark? Even he wouldn't do this, because of the risk of blowing up his own people, unless this Stark is stupid.

It's interesting what Vitruvian said that this Civil War happened on Battleworld, but this would assume a Negative Zone exists at the same time as Battleworld. Or, theat this 42 prison was just in a building in New York, and not in NZ.

[sammy_hansen]

This particular alternate reality Civil War must have been really different for Panther to have another agenda to his obedience to Rogers in the original. It would mean either Panther or both Cap and Panther were out of character to the 616 versions, somehow, for this to go down as a result of those two. Tony Stark? Even he wouldn't do this, because of the risk of blowing up his own people, unless this Stark is stupid.

It's interesting what Vitruvian said that this Civil War happened on Battleworld, but this would assume a Negative Zone exists at the same time as Battleworld. Or, theat this 42 prison was just in a building in New York, and not in NZ.

These sorts of issues don't bother me too much in the story of Secret Wars and Battleworld. It's a hodge podge so they can re(whatever) the Marvel Universe.
However, having said that, why is Cap yelling "Avengers Assemble!" When it's clear everyone is already fighting and already together. It's almost a meaningless phrase these days. Also, did anyone notice Daredevil being able to fly when they are escaping with Cloak?