The Killing Joke animated movie

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

For things to truly get better, one of the worst examples of women being treated poorly in the medium needs to stop being glorified.

And sure, things are better, but there's still a long long way to go.

I agree with what you say, but I disagree that Barbara getting is being glorified. The story is NOT about her, and barely any panel time is spent on her. Agree to disagree, I guess.

However, I feel that it more minorities that suffer in terms of representation in comics, rather than women. Now in regards to videogames? You have a MUCH stronger argument IMO.

[JamJams]

Jason Todd was beaten, tortured and killed because FANS of the comic book hated him so much they spent real money to call in to a number to have him killed.
DCAU Tim happened in a movie for a series that didn't have nearly as much of a viewership that the original series, Batman Beyond, had let alone compared to the original-original Batman the Animated Series.

Barbara Gordon's fate wasn't decided by the fans and the Killing Joke had a viewership that eclipses the Batman Beyond movie. So no the majority of people will always say that Barbara had it worse than the other two and they should. No one can cry for a character that they voted to kill off and the majority will not cry over the treatment of a character in a cartoon offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot. It will have as much impact as me writing a fan-fiction about something traumatic happening to the Batfamily.

The important question is:
If they did the story now and had people vote on Babs fate do let you think people would vote for her to be shot and paralyzed?
If you let people vote back then on Babs fate do you think they would have let it happen as well?

Both of those answers are likely to end up as a no.

[phonogram12]

The variant cover was distasteful. Child torture and dark themes in a Superman picture are also distasteful. And making a DTV movie that follows the abomination that was the plot of The Killing Joke is also distasteful. And all of them are rather symptomatic of the problem with DC currently. Still like the characters; hate how they're treated.

Granted, they're only two examples, but the way they've turned around both Batgirl and Starfire I think is a pretty good indication that DC's heading in a better direction in terms of their female characters. Throw the Black Canary and Prez into that lot and I think it's pretty clear that they're finally getting their head on straight.

[Immortal Weapon]

I agree with what you say, but I disagree that Barbara getting is being glorified. The story is NOT about her, and barely any panel time is spent on her. Agree to disagree, I guess.

However, I feel that it more minorities that suffer in terms of representation in comics, rather than women. Now in regards to videogames? You have a MUCH stronger argument IMO.

The video games is actually an even weaker argument. There's ton of diversity of all kinds there. Fighting games and Japanese RPGs alone would kill the argument cold.

[Kingcrimsonprog]

Because it's cheap. And it uses a major violation for a plot device. Even if it's not offensive it is so often just poor writing. And it also damselizes women, which is not something that should be done lightly. Yes boys are the ones that partake in action movies and comics more than girls, but it's crap like this that keeps it this way.

It plays back into the male power fantasy where BatMAN has to go avenge BatGIRL after she is assaulted in a sexual manner. It's not like we're reaching for straws here.

So the story would be fine if it was Joker's Daughter and Batwoman?

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

The video games is actually an even weaker argument. There's ton of diversity of all kinds there. Fighting games and Japanese RPGs alone would kill the argument cold.

I guess I should specify with AAA video games. Like, have we seen many AAA titles with female leads? A Witcher type of game, but with the main character being female, or at least not white? Nope.

It's really only Lara Croft, and potentially Ellie in The Last of Us 2. Only other recent character I can think of is Lightning, and that female character from the Horizon game just shown of at this year's E3.

[Immortal Weapon]

I guess I should specify with AAA video games. Like, have we seen many AAA titles with female leads? A Witcher type of game, but with the main character being female, or at least not white? Nope.

It's really only Lara Croft, and potentially Ellie in The Last of Us 2. Only other recent character I can think of is Lightning, and that female character from the Horizon game just shown of at this year's E3.

Mirror's Edge
Assassin's Creed: Liberation
The Final Fantasy XIII series of games
Fallout series (option to create a female character)
Resident Evil (5 - Sheva, 6 - Sherry and Helena, Revelations - Jill, Revelations 2 - Claire and Barry's daughter (I forgot what her name is)
Beyond Two Souls
Splatoon
Mass Effect (option to create female character)
Dragon Age (option to create female character)
Monster Hunter (option to create female character)
Bayonetta

Those are off the top of my head.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

Jason Todd was beaten, tortured and killed because FANS of the comic book hated him so much they spent real money to call in to a number to have him killed.
DCAU Tim happened in a movie for a series that didn't have nearly as much of a viewership that the original series, Batman Beyond, had let alone compared to the original-original Batman the Animated Series.

Barbara Gordon's fate wasn't decided by the fans and the Killing Joke had a viewership that eclipses the Batman Beyond movie. So no the majority of people will always say that Barbara had it worse than the other two and they should. No one can cry for a character that they voted to kill off and the majority will not cry over the treatment of a character in a cartoon offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot. It will have as much impact as me writing a fan-fiction about something traumatic happening to the Batfamily.

The important question is:
If they did the story now and had people vote on Babs fate do let you think people would vote for her to be shot and paralyzed?
If you let people vote back then on Babs fate do you think they would have let it happen as well?

Both of those answers are likely to end up as a no.

It's still depicted in the media. Also the Jason Todd thing was RIGGED by a few crazy fans, not by everyone. Just like most people wouldn't want Babs to get shot, most people voted for Jason to live.

Tim getting tortured was still messed up. It doesn't matter that it wasn't a super popular series. It was still shown.

Anybody whose played the Arkham Knight also saw very disterbing imagery regarding Babs, and Robin.

Stop picking and choosing. What happened to Jason, and B:AS Tim, were worse than what happened to Babs. Also, Babs wasn't even used as a plot device. Jim was.

Batman didn't go after the Joker because of Babs, and the Joker just shot Babs because she was unlucky enough to not be Jim. Jim was the plot device, while Babs was a civilain casualty (as she was a civilian at the time).

Horrible things happen to heroes, male, or female. People need to except that women can be infalliable.

[Captain Haddock]

I agree with what you say, but I disagree that Barbara getting is being glorified. The story is NOT about her, and barely any panel time is spent on her. Agree to disagree, I guess.

However, I feel that it more minorities that suffer in terms of representation in comics, rather than women. Now in regards to videogames? You have a MUCH stronger argument IMO.

This is the bit I have the biggest problem with Killing Joke about (not you personally, you just so happen to be the first post I found that mentioned it. What happened to Barbara was NOT about her, in any way. She wasn't deliberately targeted except to get at Jim Gordon, and by extension Batman. The consequences (such as they were) were entirely down to what this vile act against her made two men do when they found out about it. She was the actual victim of the crime but got passed over so two adult men could get revenge on her behalf and she just got packed off to hospital and forgotten about. And if it had been down to Moore alone that would have been that. Joker got a reaction out of Batman! Gordon refused to crack and showed he was all determined and lawful. And Babs was sexually assaulted and left crippled but let's not worry about that.

Even Jason Todd's death you could at least describe as his own actions leading him to that point. He was deliberately tracking down his mother. He knowingly confronted Joker, and lost. What happened to him was at least in part because of actions he'd taken. Barbara? Nope. She was literally just there to be a victim/motivation for others. She had no impact on the actual plot whatsoever. For me, it doesn't matter how well written every other aspect was (or wasn't, depending on your view) that is always going to be pretty distasteful and will be in the animated version too unless they really shake it up.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

Mirror's Edge
Assassin's Creed: Liberation
The Final Fantasy XIII series of games
Fallout series (option to create a female character)
Resident Evil (5 - Sheva, 6 - Sherry and Helena, Revelations - Jill, Revelations 2 - Claire and Barry's daughter (I forgot what her name is)
Beyond Two Souls
Splatoon
Mass Effect (option to create female character)
Dragon Age (option to create female character)
Monster Hunter (option to create female character)
Bayonetta

Those are off the top of my head.

I'm gonna respond in order.

1) I agree.
2) That was a Vita port, not a AAA game.
3) I agree, and I did bring up Lightning.
4) I don't really thing options count. I'm talking about a game built around a female protagonist, not a blank slate that is genderless in the grand scheme of things.
5) I agree
6) I agree
7) Dude, you know Splatoon does't count lol. Just because the mascot is female doesn't make a multiplayer game, with no story, a game built around a female.
8) Refer to #4
9) Refer to #4
10) Refer to #4
11) I agree.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

This is the bit I have the biggest problem with Killing Joke about (not you personally, you just so happen to be the first post I found that mentioned it. What happened to Barbara was NOT about her, in any way. She wasn't deliberately targeted except to get at Jim Gordon, and by extension Batman. The consequences (such as they were) were entirely down to what this vile act against her made two men do when they found out about it. She was the actual victim of the crime but got passed over so two adult men could get revenge on her behalf and she just got packed off to hospital and forgotten about. And if it had been down to Moore alone that would have been that. Joker got a reaction out of Batman! Gordon refused to crack and showed he was all determined and lawful. And Babs was sexually assaulted and left crippled but let's not worry about that.

Even Jason Todd's death you could at least describe as his own actions leading him to that point. He was deliberately tracking down his mother. He knowingly confronted Joker, and lost. What happened to him was at least in part because of actions he'd taken. Barbara? Nope. She was literally just there to be a victim/motivation for others. She had no impact on the actual plot whatsoever. For me, it doesn't matter how well written every other aspect was (or wasn't, depending on your view) that is always going to be pretty distasteful and will be in the animated version too unless they really shake it up.

Well, I like that unpredictable nature of life spilling into comics. It why I've been loving Hickman's Marvel stuff.

However, I do agree that Barbara should become Oracle within the movie, and help Bruce find Jim, or something. But she should still be a minor character, like Dick is in these animated movies.

[Immortal Weapon]

I'm gonna respond in order.

1) I agree.
2) That was a Vita port, not a AAA game.
3) I agree, and I did bring up Lightning.
4) I don't really thing options count. I'm talking about a game built around a female protagonist, not a blank slate that is genderless in the grand scheme of things.
5) I agree
6) I agree
7) Dude, you know Splatoon does't count lol. Just because the mascot is female doesn't make a multiplayer game, with no story, a game built around a female.
8) Refer to #4
9) Refer to #4
10) Refer to #4
11) I agree.

Ass Creed Liberation is originally a Vita game and was promoted as a major game for the handheld. It even had it's own bundle. It was later ported to console and PC. For the Vita it is a AAA game.

Splatoon does have a story. It's absolute crap but it does have a single player campaign.

[phonogram12]

I think what it boils down to is that Jason, Tim, Jim, and Babs are supporting characters. Their very existence is to someway get a reaction out of the central character and about half the time to get that reaction something bad has to happen to them. Yes, in the past it used to happen to women more than men, but both Marvel and DC are actually making a lot of headway into evening things out a bit. Also, if we were to seriously get rid of every offensive depiction of anything from everything, I'm not sure there would be a whole lot left.

Mickey Rooney playing a bumbling bucktoothed Asian man in the '60s for example. As an Asian man, myself, I find this incredibly offensive. Do I wish for all copies everywhere to be burned, however? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. It's actually a pretty good movie putting that aside.

[The_Greatest_Username]

I think what it boils down to is that Jason, Tim, Jim, and Babs are supporting characters. Their very existence is to someway get a reaction out of the central character and about half the time to get that reaction something bad has to happen to them. Yes, in the past it used to happen to women more than men, but both Marvel and DC are actually making a lot of headway into evening things out a bit. Also, if we were to seriously get rid of every offensive depiction of anything from everything, I'm not sure there would be a whole lot left.

Mickey Rooney playing a bumbling bucktoothed Asian man in the '60s for example. As an Asian man, myself, I find this incredibly offensive. Do I wish for all copies everywhere to be burned, however? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. It's actually a pretty good movie putting that aside.

I don't think anyone is calling for DC to burn all copies of The Killing Joke. To put it in perspective, if they remade Breakfast At Tiffiany's, should they keep it exactly the same or take out/alter the awful depiction of an Asian man (played by a white actor in yellow-face).