LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Harpsikord]

Huh. Whys that? I personally love his origin, how much of a nerd he is, and how adorable he is when it comes to Billy

Just personal preference. I don't dislike him, but I just don't think that there's anything spectacular about him or think anything spectacular's been done with him. He always sort of plays supporting cast to Wiccan.

It's hard when a weaker (personality-wise, or at least just interest wise) character is paired with a much stronger (or more interesting) one. So, of course, Billy overshadows Teddy. It doesn't have to stay that way but I think it's easy to think that Billy is the stronger of the two, or that they HAVE to be written as a unit, where even if it's accidental Billy will still overshadow him.

Gillen's run did no favors to Teddy either, sidelining him from the main team and having that kiss moment with Prodigy... and at the same time, it did Billy the BEST favor by elevating his status (ultimately, this was the reason they were on New Avengers when they were) and making him the demiurge, and also being the center of the run.

And while I'm thinking about it there WAS a time when writers used Billy with Teddy nowhere in sight; Sorcerer Supreme Wiccan from the Battle of the Atom reality showing up in the identically-named event and then in Sorcerer Supreme's. Writers just aren't as interested in Teddy as much as they are Billy, and as a result, his characterization suffers.

[Fokken]

Is it weird that if they brought back Young Avengers, I wouldnt want any of the previous cast back, aside from maybe Cassie?

Billy and Teddy have been Avengers in their own right, and Kate has headlined two of her own series' now. Eli is gone, replaced with a new Patriot and poor old Tommy was never really used at all, so I can't say I really miss him. Iron Lad appears to be showing up elsewhere soon, but is Kang, so is a bit of a mess of a character to use long term.

Even from the second generation, Loki is busy, America has had her own series and stared in Ultimates and Prodigy kinda falls in to the Speed category (which is likely why they worked together so well).

For a chunk of the original team, going back to being Young Avengers would be a step backwards. Many of them need to appearing more, but not in a new YA book....

I feel the same way.

<raises shield to block any incoming shrapnel)

At this juncture of their heroic journey, their inclusion among what most folk would identify as "fully fledged" Avengers would be preferable.
If not officially Avenger-sanctioned, then as members of a splinter hero team under an entirely different name, like Defenders, Champions, etc. (but obviously not with THOSE teams)

I do find it fascinating, on the subject of Billy and Teddy, how many folks interpret their personalities as so vastly different in......size(?)
I see people share that they feel Teddy is muted(for lack of a better word) compared to Teddy, but I wouldn't agree. I think they both have such a deep well of story potential to mine.

Speaking specifically of Teddy, he's essentially an orphan, and a fanboy, and a would-be-Monarch, and a biracial (bi-species?) shape shifter (which I've always felt that shape shifters in general would inevitably develop identity challenges -- but in the case of Teddy being the product of THREE (Kree, Skrull, Earth) cultures, I'd say his ability to compartmentalize is remarkable), and of course being in love with a reality warper (but that whole thing was tapped during Gillen's run) who is suffering from some mental health concerns. These days I'm more interested in seeing Teddy get story focus.

[Beaubier]

Obviously, Marvel struggles to come up with original brands these days and so they just recycle old concepts, despite the content being entirely unrelated. As you mentioned, Secret Warriors had pretty much no ties to the original line-up, other than Quake being a member- I don't think they even called themselves that in the comic. Exiles just keeps Blink and the multiverse concept but is by no means an X-Men title anymore. And the Champions have nothing in common with the originals.

Yeah, it's a funny quirk and something they all have in common. I suppose it's a generational thing.




It's really refreshing to have a longstanding X-Man finally in the limelight though. And while, as you say, the action moments haven't necessarily been the greatest, I think the series has been groundbreaking in terms of character development and defining who Bobby Drake is as a person under all that ice. The next issue also potentially brings together a team, so we MIGHT see more Northstar. Fingers crossed.

I feel like Rainbow Rowell is playing with the Karolina/Nico will they/won't they thing. Nico is obvs over Chase, but Karolina now has a girlfriend in Julie Power. Very interesting. Also seems to me like Xavin may return in a future arc. I'm not sure if we'd consider Xavin trans or genderfluid, but it's great representation either way.

Really glad the No Surrender creative team brought in Lightning. He's been a strong addition to the cast, and I'm hoping he sticks around post-Avengers #690.

And those abs... I don't even like Namors pompous ass but wow. More please.

That’s exactly what Rowell is doing. She basically spelled it out on page. I can get behind it. I just hope we get some insight on what changed for Nico and why Karolina has become a missed opportunity for her. I’m glad we’ll see more of Karolina’s relationship with Julie soon. Curious how it’ll be depicted.

I do hope the Xavin plot thread is resolved but I do not want Xavin and Karolina to get back together at this point.

Xavin is not trans (according to Xavin, the Skrull don’t have gender) and would be closer to gender fluid. But as Xavin only initially took a female body to please Karolina, the whole thing was pretty problematic. Not exactly what I’d call great representation tbh.

[Holt]

Miguel/Lightning is the only character from No Surrender that I *demand* be on an Avengers roster after this event is over.

I feel like they wouldn't have bothered pulling him out of obscurity if they didn't have plans for him.

[Journey]

I hate that they lost their mutant status though. Damn retcons.

Technically that's still up in the air at this point it hasn't been outright said that Billy and Tommy aren't mutants anymore. X gene isn't always genetic and at this stage in the game Billy's powers are probably stronger than Wanda's if were going off facts I mean he's like the multiverse Jesus.

Until it's confirmed otherwise I choose to believe their mutants. Besides once the Fox and Marvel movie **** is finalized for good Marvel will probably retcon all the Axis **** anyways. Most fans don't even acknowledge it at all to begin with so ehh whatever.

[legion_quest]

I feel the same way.

<raises shield to block any incoming shrapnel)

At this juncture of their heroic journey, their inclusion among what most folk would identify as "fully fledged" Avengers would be preferable.
If not officially Avenger-sanctioned, then as members of a splinter hero team under an entirely different name, like Defenders, Champions, etc. (but obviously not with THOSE teams)

I do find it fascinating, on the subject of Billy and Teddy, how many folks interpret their personalities as so vastly different in......size(?)
I see people share that they feel Teddy is muted(for lack of a better word) compared to Teddy, but I wouldn't agree. I think they both have such a deep well of story potential to mine.

Speaking specifically of Teddy, he's essentially an orphan, and a fanboy, and a would-be-Monarch, and a biracial (bi-species?) shape shifter (which I've always felt that shape shifters in general would inevitably develop identity challenges -- but in the case of Teddy being the product of THREE (Kree, Skrull, Earth) cultures, I'd say his ability to compartmentalize is remarkable), and of course being in love with a reality warper (but that whole thing was tapped during Gillen's run) who is suffering from some mental health concerns. These days I'm more interested in seeing Teddy get story focus.

Woohoo!

I agree, I'd love to see Billy and Teddy move on to do some more exploration of the Ewing set up with Teddy as space King Arthur. It might work out poorly for their relationship - as Billy would need to play the part of Guinevere eventually, if they kept up the analogy - but it's an easy change to the ending to have it be that the Lancelot characters is exploiting Billy and then he realises he's being used and he just wants Teddy and they come back together for a glorious moment - the drama, the angst, the spectacle, the cameos.....but alas, Iceman selling poorly means Marvel are unlikely to take a punt on a gay lead again for a while.

Kate seems to be the biggest success story. Kelly Thompson wrote a brilliant series, and I hope she gets the chance to write some bigger things, and maybe bring Kate along.

[Michael Watkins]

I... am not actually a fan of Hulkling.

But I adore Billy.

same here. I'd support Billy being with almost anyone else.

[Michael Watkins]

Yeah, but she got de-aged/de-matured again - she's back at high school age while everyone else is 18+ at least now. She's got the 'Young' part going for her being part of a new YA.

she wasn't de-aged. and she's always been immature.

[maxhilary]

I love Hulkling just as much as I love Wiccan. That's all I wish to say.

[King_Thor13]

Just personal preference. I don't dislike him, but I just don't think that there's anything spectacular about him or think anything spectacular's been done with him. He always sort of plays supporting cast to Wiccan.

It's hard when a weaker (personality-wise, or at least just interest wise) character is paired with a much stronger (or more interesting) one. So, of course, Billy overshadows Teddy. It doesn't have to stay that way but I think it's easy to think that Billy is the stronger of the two, or that they HAVE to be written as a unit, where even if it's accidental Billy will still overshadow him.

Writers just aren't as interested in Teddy as much as they are Billy, and as a result, his characterization suffers.

Huh. I can kinda see where you're coming from. I don't think Teddy is a weaker character, rather that he hasn't as much development. There are huge implications of him being both Skrull & Kree and his family ties to Mar-Vell, Phylla-Vell & Genis-Vell. Time should be spent exploring his cosmic ties/origin. Each time we've had stories with Wiccan & Hulkling, Billy has always been at the centre of the narrative, which does essentially make Hulkling a secondary character and love interest- I do think though that he has more depth and potential.

That’s exactly what Rowell is doing. She basically spelled it out on the page. I can get behind it. I just hope we get some insight on what changed for Nico and why Karolina has become a missed opportunity for her. I’m glad we’ll see more of Karolina’s relationship with Julie soon. Curious how it’ll be depicted.

I do hope the Xavin plot thread is resolved but I do not want Xavin and Karolina to get back together at this point.

Xavin is not trans (according to Xavin, the Skrull don’t have a gender) and would be closer to gender fluid. But as Xavin only initially took a female body to please Karolina, the whole thing was pretty problematic. Not exactly what I’d call great representation tbh.

I hope Karolina + Julie don't break up just in order to explore that whole ship. I don't think they're that compatible to be honest. And from how I perceive it, the reason Nico may be experiencing those emotions is linked to loneliness and a desire to be loved. After having 'lost' both families in the Runaways and A-Force, Nico may very well be looking for comfort and somebody that will look after her.

I agree. Karolina doesn't need Xavin anymore, but I do want that plot addressed and resolved.

And yeah I can see that. Hadn't considered it that way, but yeah that isn't a very healthy representation in it's accuracy.

Technically that's still up in the air at this point it hasn't been outright said that Billy and Tommy aren't mutants anymore. X gene isn't always genetic and at this stage in the game, Billy's powers are probably stronger than Wanda's if we're going off facts I mean he's like the multiverse Jesus.

Until it's confirmed otherwise I choose to believe their mutants. Besides once the Fox and Marvel movie **** is finalized for good Marvel will probably retcon all the Axis **** anyways. Most fans don't even acknowledge it at all to begin with so ehh whatever.

Well, I suppose it goes back to the mutant or not discussion. Either you have the X-Gene or you don't. And because Billy & Tommy are like, spiritual reincarnated children, I don't know if their powers are linked to that or their physical bodies or how that works. Anyway, my point being that if Scarlet Witch isn't a mutant then you'd assume the same would apply to her children.

[Wiccan]

My headcanon about Billy and Tommy's powers is that it comes from the fact that their souls are actually parts of Mephisto lol. Technically they're like demonic children. I wish that would be explored. And their actual specific powers(magic/reality warping and super speed) comes from Wanda relating the fact she was having twins with herself and Pietro, kind of a subconscious thing.

[Beaubier]

It could have been a good story if Billy or Tommy were revealed as trans. The souls of Wanda’s twin boys.. what if one of them ended up in the body of a female when they were reincarnated? I saw a fan comic Aud Koch (who does great Billy/Teddy fanart) made of Billy coming out as trans to his parents (ofc in the Kaplan way were wonderfully accepting). By now I feel like it’s a missed opportunity but yeah.

[King_Thor13]

My headcanon about Billy and Tommy's powers is that it comes from the fact that their souls are actually parts of Mephisto lol. Technically they're like demonic children. I wish that would be explored. And their actual specific powers(magic/reality warping and super speed) comes from Wanda relating the fact she was having twins with herself and Pietro, kind of a subconscious thing.

That makes sense I guess. Would that mean they're destined for hell then? If they're apart of Mephisto, their souls would return from whence they came right? And yeah I suspect the powers came about from Wanda's reality warping and a subconcious imprint upon the twins, making them very much like herself and Pietro.

[Journey]

My headcanon about Billy and Tommy's powers is that it comes from the fact that their souls are actually parts of Mephisto lol. Technically they're like demonic children. I wish that would be explored. And their actual specific powers(magic/reality warping and super speed) comes from Wanda relating the fact she was having twins with herself and Pietro, kind of a subconscious thing.

I like that theory. I actually forgot about there souls being apart of Mephisto. Family tree just gets more fucked up! Doesn't that mean the twins have like 4 dads? Lets see first Mr Kaplan/Mr Shepherd, then Vision, you could throw in Wonderman too probably because of the connection to Vision, and now Mephisto as a soul donor! Imagine them all at one table! Woo that would be a messy little dinner.

Side note Mephisto would be a great nemesis for Billy and or Tommy.

Also I just remembered future Sorcerer Supreme Billy was an X-Men, so yeah the mutant thing still in the air.

[Wiccan]

That makes sense I guess. Would that mean they're destined for hell then? If they're apart of Mephisto, their souls would return from whence they came right? And yeah I suspect the powers came about from Wanda's reality warping and a subconcious imprint upon the twins, making them very much like herself and Pietro.

I'm not even sure what's the canon right now. Originally Wanda's kids stopped existing because their souls went back to being part of Mephisto. But then they were reincarnated... I don't think anyone thought that much about the whole situation.

I like that theory. I actually forgot about there souls being apart of Mephisto. Family tree just gets more fucked up! Doesn't that mean the twins have like 4 dads? Lets see first Mr Kaplan/Mr Sheperd, then Vision, you could throw in Wonderman too probably because of the connection to Vision, and now Mephisto as a soul donor! Imagine them all at one table! Woo that would be a messy little dinner.

Side not Mephisto would be a great nemesis for Billy and or Tommy.

Also I just remembered future Sorcerer Supreme Billy was an X-Men, so yeah the mutant thing still in the air.

LOL. But Vision and Simon are considered brothers, so he would be their uncle. And thinking about that, both of them have some relation to their uncles. Speed is pretty much a Quicksilver Jr, and Billy was named after Wonder Man, and their color scheme is lowkey similar.