LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Kieran_Frost]

I don't see Betsy as bi because she showed no interest in women before or since Cluster, and that was a special case, far closer to one crazy weekend in Vegas than anything long term so I don't think she'd accept if another woman asked her out or anything like that...

As for Mystique, I think that she's fully bi, she can fall in love with either men or women but her one true love is Destiny, I think that she did love Forge and maybe that played a role in how that all went down...

Logan and Kurt aren't bi either despite what any writer thought about them decades ago...

Claremont himself says he sees Logan as bisexual. Also this is an LGBT APPRECIATION thread, so please try and remember that when phrasing your responses. You're verging on "non-appreciating" of LGBT inclusion. Cheers

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I was more going by what was written, as for the appreciation thread, I'm not knocking the characters that actually are in the LGBT spectrum, all that I'm saying is that I don't see Psylocke as one of them...

[Tiamatty]

I was more going by what was written, as for the appreciation thread, I'm not knocking the characters that actually are in the LGBT spectrum, all that I'm saying is that I don't see Psylocke as one of them...

At this point, I'd say there's not enough hard evidence to decide if Psylocke's bisexual or just straight with an exception. But there's arguably enough subtext, over the years, that I would argue she's a het-leaning bisexual. She prefers men, but it's likely she is also attracted to women, and would be open to dating one.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

But I just don't see a woman that she had first dated as a man left in the Marvel U that would work with that view though...

[t hedge coke]

But I just don't see a woman that she had first dated as a man left in the Marvel U that would work with that view though...

You seem to have more trouble with it than she did, though.

[Tiamatty]

But I just don't see a woman that she had first dated as a man left in the Marvel U that would work with that view though...

Right, because the fact that she had a romantic and sexual relationship with a woman, who identified as a woman, who was biologically a woman, definitely couldn't have resulted in Psylocke deciding that she actually does like women. Nope, absolutely no possible way that could be the case.

But let's actually go deeper on this. Psylocke has never said, on-panel, that she identifies as straight, or that Cluster was the first woman she was intimate with. So it's actually entirely possible that she's always identified as bi and just never happened to hook up with a woman prior to Cluster. It's also possible she did hook up with women before Cluster, and we just never saw it, because it happened during periods where she wasn't appearing in comics. Maybe before her introduction in Captain Marvel's comics, when she was a model and a spy. It would be incredibly easy for a writer to toss that retcon in, and it wouldn't contradict anything we've ever seen or been told about her.

Or maybe she did always identify as straight. Never gave any serious thought before to hooking up with a girl. Then she hooks up with Cluster, and finds, hey, the female body is actually a lot of fun, and she starts looking at women differently than she did before. And maybe she doesn't go out looking for a woman to hook up with, but if a woman approaches her, she doesn't say no.

I've argued in the past that there's not enough solid on-panel evidence to say she's bi rather than straight-with-an-exception. But I also think there's been enough subtext to believe she's probably on the bi spectrum. And I've also said she should have another relationship with a woman just to make it clear that she's bi. (It's part of why I like the idea of Psylocke/Mystique hate-sex so much.)

[Star_Jammer]

Right, because the fact that she had a romantic and sexual relationship with a woman, who identified as a woman, who was biologically a woman, definitely couldn't have resulted in Psylocke deciding that she actually does like women. Nope, absolutely no possible way that could be the case.

Eh. Was Cluster's status ever put so concretely?

Wasn't she just the "nice" part of Fantomex, that somehow materialized as a female human? (I didn't read Hopeless' awful run)

The whole situation is rather icky, IMO.

[dragonmp93]

Eh. Was Cluster's status ever put so concretely?

Wasn't she just the "nice" part of Fantomex, that somehow materialized as a female human? (I didn't read Hopeless' awful run)

Well, we are sure that she wasnt a psychic illusion or a hologram.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

You seem to have more trouble with it than she did, though.

Well I'm an actual human and Betsy is a character in a comic that will believe what the writer wants her to believe and have trouble with what the writer wants her to have trouble with, she doesn't have a mind of her own...so she didn't have a problem with it because the writer didn't want her to so it's a bit subjective there...as for Cluster...she was a part of Fantomex made real, not sure why made into female form...that Fantomex then at the very least kissed and probably had sex with...

It's far more likely that unless Cluster suddenly showed up and could wash away her past I don't see Betsy coming out as bi as there's been nothing to suggest that she is, for better or worse you identify a character as straight if it's not stated otherwise and given their history...

[Tiamatty]

Eh. Was Cluster's status ever put so concretely?

Wasn't she just the "nice" part of Fantomex, that somehow materialized as a female human? (I didn't read Hopeless' awful run)

The whole situation is rather icky, IMO.

Well, yeah, Cluster was pretty clearly female. She was the "nice" side of Fantomex, and also the feminine side. That was kinda the point. And personally, I loved Humphries' run. (It was Sam Humphries who wrote that run, not Dennis Hopeless.) It was weird and cool. I really, really enjoyed that whole run.

Well I'm an actual human and Betsy is a character in a comic that will believe what the writer wants her to believe and have trouble with what the writer wants her to have trouble with, she doesn't have a mind of her own...so she didn't have a problem with it because the writer didn't want her to so it's a bit subjective there...as for Cluster...she was a part of Fantomex made real, not sure why made into female form...that Fantomex then at the very least kissed and probably had sex with...

It's far more likely that unless Cluster suddenly showed up and could wash away her past I don't see Betsy coming out as bi as there's been nothing to suggest that she is, for better or worse you identify a character as straight if it's not stated otherwise and given their history...

Like I said, Psylocke's had subtext. As with so many X-characters, but still, it's been there. And it would be so easy for a writer to just have her say, "Yeah, I'm bi." Also, I'm not sure I agree with "assume straight until proven otherwise." That feels wrong to me. Like, I assume Illyana's a lesbian. I assume Storm's pansexual. I assume Gambit's bi. Because there's been enough hints and subtext to justify those assumptions, even if they haven't been made canon (yet).

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I meant the assume straight until like you said there are examples of one or the other, with Storm we've seen her seem to go both ways so yeah I'd agree that she's bi, I just mean that the first time that you meet a character you assume that they're straight...until they do something that would change that opinion, doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't do anything to change that opinion...because there's far more straight characters than bi or gay/lesbian, simple numbers nothing more. I'm not sure what Illyana is but as for her just saying that it's possible for her to be anything I guess...well what is text to one person is not to others, there were plenty of people who thought that Lupin and Sirius from the Harry Potter series were in love despite Rowling saying otherwise and being surprised that people thought that they ever were...to me there hasn't been enough of anything to say that Betsy is anything but straight...unlike with Storm...so no not saying that Illyana can't be or shouldn't be a lesbian...

Anyway last I checked Cluster no longer even exists...

[Star_Jammer]

Well, yeah, Cluster was pretty clearly female. She was the "nice" side of Fantomex, and also the feminine side. That was kinda the point. And personally, I loved Humphries' run. (It was Sam Humphries who wrote that run, not Dennis Hopeless.) It was weird and cool. I really, really enjoyed that whole run.

I meant "clearly" as in...Cluster identified as a unique female gendered individual, and not "a male gender's nice/feminine side (gee, how typical) personified in a female body".

But you also kinda pointed at my personal issue accepting this as a good storyline: Cluster was a part of Fantomex. Cluster was not it's own unique being (unique outside of the situation). Psylocke also had trouble reconciling her feelings for Fantomex (at least she seemed to, in the very few panels I can find devoted to the matter), with her love/hate feelings for Fantomex being split between his personalities.

[Tiamatty]

I meant the assume straight until like you said there are examples of one or the other, with Storm we've seen her seem to go both ways so yeah I'd agree that she's bi, I just mean that the first time that you meet a character you assume that they're straight...until they do something that would change that opinion, doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't do anything to change that opinion...because there's far more straight characters than bi or gay/lesbian, simple numbers nothing more. I'm not sure what Illyana is but as for her just saying that it's possible for her to be anything I guess...well what is text to one person is not to others, there were plenty of people who thought that Lupin and Sirius from the Harry Potter series were in love despite Rowling saying otherwise and being surprised that people thought that they ever were...to me there hasn't been enough of anything to say that Betsy is anything but straight...unlike with Storm...so no not saying that Illyana can't be or shouldn't be a lesbian...

Anyway last I checked Cluster no longer even exists...

There is literally no on-panel evidence of Storm being bi. All it is, is subtext. Psylocke actually had sex with a woman and enjoyed it. So arguing that Psylocke should be assumed as straight while Storm should be assumed as bi is pretty silly. And I really disagree about assuming new characters are straight. There is absolutely no reason, when meeting a new character, to assume they're straight.

I meant "clearly" as in...Cluster identified as a unique female gendered individual, and not "a male gender's nice/feminine side (gee, how typical) personified in a female body".

But you also kinda pointed at my personal issue accepting this as a good storyline: Cluster was a part of Fantomex. Cluster was not it's own unique being (unique outside of the situation). Psylocke also had trouble reconciling her feelings for Fantomex (at least she seemed to, in the very few panels I can find devoted to the matter), with her love/hate feelings for Fantomex being split between his personalities.

Cluster did at least seem to identify as female. I get your issues with the storyline, and I can't say you're wrong, but I do still disagree I loved the run, including that arc.

[Tiamatty]

So hey! Brian Bendis can go to hell!

He more-or-less broke up Angela and Sera. Angela goes to the apartment she shared with Sera. Sera's not there. She didn't leave any information on where she's gone, or why she left, or how Angela can reach her, or anything. She's just gone. Like she never existed. Which shouldn't be surprising, given Bendis spent the past couple years pretending Sera doesn't exist. So Angela says she's going to look for Sera, and then deals with other ****.

There was no reason for this ****. None. None. This was pointless, and it felt petty. Like Bendis got fed up with people asking about Sera, so he wrote this scene solely and specifically to piss those people off. "Haha! It serves you right for wanting to know what's going on with this queer character's lover! What fools you are, for asking about the status of one of Marvel's two trans characters! I sure got you!" It's an insult to people who enjoyed Queen of Hel. And it's shitty storytelling, on top of that. Sera has never once been mentioned at any point in Bendis' entire run on GotG. So people who didn't read Queen of Hel have absolutely no context giving them a reason to care about Sera being missing. So it's a scene that's really only there for readers of Queen of Hel, who are just going to be pissed off about it.

I genuinely think that Bendis is uncomfortable with homosexuality. I think he supports LGBTQ+ rights and representation in principle, but is deeply uncomfortable with it on a personal level. I've noted before that he just does not include same-sex romances. If he has a gay character, their sexuality is mentioned once, and that's it. And now, he's breaking up a same-sex romance for no reason whatsoever. Just because no one was going to tell him no. Never mind if it pisses people off, never mind if it does damage to the already-nonexistence trans representation Marvel has. Two people of the same gender are in a relationship? Can't have that! Break 'em up!

So yeah, can we just officially declare that Bendis is actually a **** ally? He pays lip service, but that's it. Hell, even when he had Iceman came out, he waited until the very end of his run so that he wouldn't have to do any of the work of actually writing a gay character. "Iceman's gay now! Shower me with praise while other people actually write a gay Iceman!"

The GotG bullshit becomes even worse when you consider that Ms. Marvel #16, which also came out today, apparently had a touching and well-written scene where Zoe confesses her feelings to Nakia, and Nakia turns her down. Both books had a same-sex relationship get shot down, but one of them's getting love, while the other is getting write-ups about how awful it was. And it's a great contrast between what real allyship looks like in fiction. Wilson is giving a gay character focus and development and touching moments on a regular basis, and even when the character is rejected, it doesn't feel harsh or unfair. Bendis ignores a character's sexuality for his entire run and then randomly shits all over an existing same-sex romance for no reason at all.

So like I said at the start, to hell with Bendis. You should back Bingo Love instead, a comic about a pair of gay black girls, written by a (self-identified) queer black woman (who's also disabled, and a single mother, because she clearly really likes a challenge). Supporting comics like this sends a message to the industry as a whole that yes, there is a market for comics that focus on same-sex romance. Plus, Jenn St. Onge art. So pretty.

[Tiamatty]

Anyway, The Week In Gay!

I covered GotG #18 already, of course.

Ms. Marvel #16 is really good. Zoe gets a chunk of focus here. The Doc.X virus uses Zoe's unsent love texts to Nakia in order to threaten Ms. Marvel, and when Ms. Marvel tells her, Zoe decides to confess her feelings to Nakia, and that scene is really, really sweet and touching. One thing that's important is that Zoe being gay is hugely important to the story, but it's also used to show how strong she is, and how much she's changed from when she was first introduced, and how close she and Nakia have become. Some people bitch when a gay character's sexuality is a major plot point. But this proves that, even when a story literally hinges on a character being gay, it can still be used to explore multiple facets of that character at the same time. Anyway, Ms. Marvel's a wonderful book and I love it and Zoe's great.

Hellcat, being written by a self-identified queer woman, is really always relevant to this thread. But, more relevant than ever, this panel:

draculee (2).jpg

Jubilee, dressed as Dracula, being checked out by America. Yep.

World of Wakanda #5, the end of the origin of Aneka and Ayo. With smooches. It was actually a pretty weak story overall. Gay is clearly knew to comics, and the way she told the story had a ton of problems. Ayo and Aneka do make a great couple, but to be blunt, **** like this is why Marvel needs to look at the diverse writers already making comics. They went with someone with no comic book experience, and she couldn't handle it. Meanwhile, there are gay black women out there making comics who would have destroyed this story. But Marvel still sucks at finding the diverse writers within the industry.

Star-Lord #4 has abs. Quill abs. Brand abs. Abs. Brand in a sports bra, because Anka is so very good to us.

Not much beyond that.