LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[TurboTaj]

You mean somewhat androgynous characters? Guys who don't have big beefy bodies and women who don't have sexpot bodies? Honestly, your best bet for that is going to be supporting characters in more comedic titles. In any more serious book, the characters do tend to have the sort of exaggerated masculinity and femininity.

Yeah I would suppose that is more along the lines of what I am looking for. I mean I expect musculature in the super-hero genre. There are a few examples of different body types for women (certain depictions of Wonder Woman, She-Hulk, etc. but it is all admittedly very artist dependent) but nothing slimmer and more androgynous for men. I guess that tends to happen more in eastern comics but then there isn't much in terms of quality LGBT narratives.

Not quite sure where Wiccan being less masculine is coming from. He's always been presented as a young gay male.

In terms of where you might find some characters who are more fluid, I'm not sure. The Wicked and the Divine over at Image pushes the 'non-confirm to anything' buttons so hard, I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who isn't being binary about things.

Perhaps I didn't phrase my thoughts correctly. Wiccan has always been presented and identifies as a male but his original appearance was more of a lean geek-ish persona. He has subsequently become the stereotypical muscular ideal male physique which is alienating for me (yes I know its a superficial reason to feel distant from a character but that's how I feel.) Your suggestion looks pretty interesting though! I'll give it a look. Thanks!

[Tiamatty]

Yeah I would suppose that is more along the lines of what I am looking for. I mean I expect musculature in the super-hero genre. There are a few examples of different body types for women (certain depictions of Wonder Woman, She-Hulk, etc. but it is all admittedly very artist dependent) but nothing slimmer and more androgynous for men. I guess that tends to happen more in eastern comics but then there isn't much in terms of quality LGBT narratives.

I would say that Chipmunk Hunk and, especially, Koi Boi, both from Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, are less Manly Men. Ian, from Hellcat. Koi Boi is a trans man, and Ian is a bi boy. Teen Iceman, in All-New X-Men, is drawn with a teen boy's body, what with him being a teen boy. Miles Morales Spider-Man is a little on the scrawny side, though he's straight.

Perhaps I didn't phrase my thoughts correctly. Wiccan has always been presented and identifies as a male but his original appearance was more of a lean geek-ish persona. He has subsequently become the stereotypical muscular ideal male physique which is alienating for me (yes I know its a superficial reason to feel distant from a character but that's how I feel.) Your suggestion looks pretty interesting though! I'll give it a look. Thanks!

Oh, if non-Marvel is acceptable, then definitely WicDiv. And as odd as this suggestion may seem: Jem & the Holograms. It's a genuinely great comic, with wonderful body diversity. (Which is no surprise, given the characters were all designed by the wonderful Sophie Campbell. Anything she does is worth checking out.) The cast is primarily women, of course, but there are some men, too, and the Kimber/Stormer romance is so good that it transcends gender.


Edit: Actually, I should say that if you're looking for queer narratives in comics, you won't really find them at Marvel. Marvel has made pretty clear that it's not a priority for them. There's a few, here and there, but it's definitely something Marvel's higher-ups don't give a damn about. If you want comics with queer narratives, independent comics is where to go. I've mentioned before, in this thread, that Iron Circus Comics and Northwest Press are both great for that. I'd recommend starting with The Less Than Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal, which I haven't read myself, but it's gotten massive amounts of praise. That makes it a good place to start, and then you can go from there. Another great option is anthologies, which can introduce you to a lot of writers who do stories with queer narratives.

[jeanvaljean]

That is AWESOME! And yes, very important to praise our LGBT artists and writers too. Representation matter in ALL fields.


Adorable!


I'll add her to the OP.

Tiresias seems to prefer male pronouns, at least he does not correct Hercules when he does so.

[Andru]

While I enjoyed the idea of Daken & Johnny "hooking up", I really don't think anything happened.

The whole situation was only presented in Daken's title right? I don't believe it showed up anywhere else.

[zinderel]

Tiresias seems to prefer male pronouns, at least he does not correct Hercules when he does so.

This may be too nuanced for Marvel at the moment, but I kinda got the feeling that Tiresias doesn't identify as exclusively male or female anymore, at least with any sense of permanence. I think after so long a life, 'silly' things like pronouns don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. It seems to me that Tiresias presents as whatever gender (or blend/lack thereof) Tiresias feels like, but doesn't begrudge the fact that people who have known her as a man for a long time will refer to her as such, at times without thinking, and those who've known him as a woman, likewise.

It's kinda like how Alexis Arquette appeared to approach things with the family who knew her for YEARS as their son and brother. Just look at the announcement her brother posted of her death and all the different, sometimes conflicting pronouns. Some people likely found that confusing, but it spoke to me of a family that didn't deny Alexis' reality - supported it, really - but acknowledged what came before without drama or erasure.

Of course, Herc is hardly known for his tact, and Tiresius has known and loved him (platonically) for ages despite that, so it's prolly just...water off a ducks back for Tiresias at this point.

[Fokken]

New Avengers this coming Wednesday!!
Billy and Teddy are back in action with the rest of the team FINALLY!!

Here's hoping for some sweet take downs of the New Revengers!

The match ups seem so obvious but I'm just dying to see what Ewing cooks up.

[Lucena Soares]

I'd recommend starting with The Less Than Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal, which I haven't read myself, but it's gotten massive amounts of praise. That makes it a good place to start, and then you can go from there. Another great option is anthologies, which can introduce you to a lot of writers who do stories with queer narratives.

OH MY GOD! The Less Than Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal is incredible! I read it just at the start of this year.

[Mah VM]

Yeah, that's kinda my take: Daken was almost certainly using his pheromones on Johnny, which makes the consent questionable at best. So I'm not happy about Liu confirming they had sex, but I know some in this thread will be excited about it.

I don't think she confirmed anything, it was a joke. I like to think Liu would know better than to just say Daken hooked up with someone without taking the issue of consent into question. She would've clarified that. I'd love to see Daken back somewhere and have him talk about Johnny as someone he genuinely cared about (which is how I read it then) and make the Daken/Johnny thing canon, and by that I mean confirm something happened between them back then. But that would make Johnny a LGBT character and heads would explode, I can see the 2483648326 threads about it already...

Just curious, does anyone have recommendations for slightly more gender queer characters? I was really fond of Wiccan during the Allan Heinberg days but lately he has been going off in more of a masculine route which is making it a bit harder to identify with him (still like the character a lot but I no longer have the feeling of being represented by him.)

Tiresias in Herc's short-lived solo and in the Gods Of War tie-in is Genderqueer. Tiresias never corrects people about their gender but dresses pretty androgynus. Also, I totally agree about Billy back in the day. If I remember correctly Anole calls Glob Herman "Dude" whenever he talks to him, I swear If I hear Wiccan calling Sunspot, Power Man or Warlock "Bro" I'll drop dead.

Why does Daken using his powers become an implication without any evidence on the page that he did it, while him not using his powers has to have evidence on the page for you to believe it?

The seems to speak more to how you feel about the character than what the writer of the character at the time does.

Because Daken was manipulating everyone in his book, he has pheromone powers and has no problem with using it. That means people are going to question the nature of every single one of his relationships, friendships etc... I'm a Daken fan but I'd be reaching if I said questioning how genuine and mutual another character's feelings for him is hating the character. Though I've seen Daken ripped to shreds in this LGBT thread many times to understand you're reaction to what I said. The reason I'd like for there to be evidence on panel that he didn't use his powers on Johnny if they did hook up is because that would mean Johnny was attracted to Daken and is also LGBT which, as you know, would spark a hundred threads here with people crying foul. That's why Daken talking about it and clarifying he didn't use pheromones on Johnny because he really liked him would be the ideal.

That said I took what Liu said as a joke.

Not quite sure where Wiccan being less masculine is coming from. He's always been presented as a young gay male.

I'm sure it wasn't an insult. Billy has always been geeky, cute and adorable which used to set him apart from the bodybuilders around him. Now...

[Fokken]

Regarding the earlier posts regarding Billy's level of masculinity:
Billy's body language has varied throughout his history in the many representations (both official and unofficial) by different artists in different avenues (books, tumblr, deviant art, etc), and as such leaves the interpretation of said masculinity levels very open, imho.

When airborn/flying, for example, he is commonly depicted in what is arguably a "traditional" feminine pose(?), by superhero standards (pointed toes, legs close together -- one bent high to the waist, etc.
Additionally, people are prone to applying gender norms with gay couples and Billy is easily assigned the feminine role, if only because of Hulkling's larger stature.
Life experiences and varying exposure to gay culture is going to have readers identifying with Billy on different levels for different reasons. I find it interesting when one reader "sees" the character in a different way than my own.

For example, I was talking with a friend earlier about how we think Billy sounds. Like, his voice. My buddy and I had very different ideas of the deepness of Billy's voice.
Personally, I think he sounds more like Billy Gilman.
Unfamiliar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJrShaOaz0
He speaks to the judges at the end. Also his singing voice is phenomenal.
But yeah, I imagine anyone who opts to take a listen might have a very different idea of what he would sound like. That's part of the fun of comics. The varying interpretations.

[jeanvaljean]

This may be too nuanced for Marvel at the moment, but I kinda got the feeling that Tiresias doesn't identify as exclusively male or female anymore, at least with any sense of permanence. I think after so long a life, 'silly' things like pronouns don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. It seems to me that Tiresias presents as whatever gender (or blend/lack thereof) Tiresias feels like, but doesn't begrudge the fact that people who have known her as a man for a long time will refer to her as such, at times without thinking, and those who've known him as a woman, likewise.

It's kinda like how Alexis Arquette appeared to approach things with the family who knew her for YEARS as their son and brother. Just look at the announcement her brother posted of her death and all the different, sometimes conflicting pronouns. Some people likely found that confusing, but it spoke to me of a family that didn't deny Alexis' reality - supported it, really - but acknowledged what came before without drama or erasure.

Of course, Herc is hardly known for his tact, and Tiresius has known and loved him (platonically) for ages despite that, so it's prolly just...water off a ducks back for Tiresias at this point.

That is actually a great read of Tiresius.

[NewMutant]

While I enjoyed the idea of Daken & Johnny "hooking up", I really don't think anything happened.

The whole situation was only presented in Daken's title right? I don't believe it showed up anywhere else.

Yeah it was very Daken specific. I don't even think it was mentioned in any other title ever. Still great fun. I feel like I a few friendships like that where it appears a bit homoerotic. Its just a bromance, but feels a bit more sexual given Daken's personality and the fact is viewed specifically from his perspective.

[Wiccan]

Perhaps I didn't phrase my thoughts correctly. Wiccan has always been presented and identifies as a male but his original appearance was more of a lean geek-ish persona. He has subsequently become the stereotypical muscular ideal male physique which is alienating for me (yes I know its a superficial reason to feel distant from a character but that's how I feel.) Your suggestion looks pretty interesting though! I'll give it a look. Thanks!

Billy muscular physique is just a bad art result + maybe the fact he's growing up you know. Unless you're counting Gillen's run too, but still he was a bit older.

[Fokken]

Billy muscular physique is just a bad art result + maybe the fact he's growing up you know. Unless you're counting Gillen's run too, but still he was a bit older.

Medina's rendering is pretty solid, imho. I dig it.

[NewMutant]

Medina's rendering is pretty solid, imho. I dig it.

Is Cannonball actually on this team now? Ugh. I love nearly everyone on this team but am trying to quit! I love Medina as an artist. Very underrated.

[legion_quest]

This is the swansong for this team, right?

As far as we've seen so far, Billy and Teddy are heading back to limbo after the relaunches?