Is current day Black Widow still a clone?

[MarkRodriguez09]

Is the real Natasha still dead after the events of Secret Empire? Did they ever resolve the clone issue or is it a situation similar to Fat Tony from the Simpsons where we're supposed to just go on and pretend his brother is now him going forward?

I just got Black Widow and Hawkeye # 1 and I remembered the clone deal. It feels weird seeing Hawkeye and Black Widow go through so much together, when the real Natasha is dead and this is just a copy. Especially since we have a back up story of a flashback, presumably when she was still alive.

[Riv86672]

Still a clone, still needlessly hosting a Symbiote, AFAIK.

[MarkRodriguez09]

Still a clone, still needlessly hosting a Symbiote, AFAIK.

Yeah this issue was the first time I seen her with the Widow symbiote.

Ugh... kinda sucks that Marvel hopped aboard the clone train and treating them as if the dead characters actually came back. Did they not learn anything from the Spider-Man clone saga where the whole deal was making sure Peter Parker knew he was the real deal?

It seems to me that Black Widow, Miss Marvel and who-knows-how-many mutants are now dead and it's just carbon copies that think they're the original running around. Hopefully sometime down the line some other crossover event or time travel shenanigans fixes this and brings the original back. Hell, call it Clone Wars, the originals come back and have to duke it out with their clones.

[ChrisIII]

The thing with classic Beast being brought back also throws some extra ambiguity into the whole thing. Also Talon (Version of Laura who was in the Vault) and X-23 (Newer clone), although Talon recently died.

The Spider-Man Clone Conspiracy storyline likewise had the Gwen clone there thinking she was the real thing and remembering things, but then Judgement Day had Gwen's ghost with no memory of Clone Conspiracy or that Gwen knew Peter's secret at the moment of her death.

Plus there's even further confusion in the same way with the Beast thing regarding Spider-Man; The Lizard checked with Dr Strange to see if his wife and son were the same 'soul'-Strange said yes I think.

But also you had the Ned Leeds and Prowler clones around while the originals were revealed to still be alive eventually.

Then again this has happened before, I think there were plenty of Marvel storylines where dead characters were revealed to be in the afterlife or brought back for a short time only for them to not be dead in the first place. Norman, for example. Immortal Hulk also had General Ross/Red Hulk in the "Below place" although it was revealed he had been alive all along.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, Black Widow is a clone - it seems the Red Room had their own Resurrection Protocols before the mutants did. Works the exact same way too - they create a duplicate body based off DNA samples, and then implant the memory using a psychic (Ursa Major was working with random psychic operatives in the Red Room's case).

And yeah, on the same logic a lot of mutants are clones now as well. The difference between them and the Scarlet Spiders though, is that there's only one running around, as the clone is only made after the original died. Unlike Ben and Kaine, who have Peter Parker's memories up to the point they were made and only after that diverge into their own people. One mutant really is a clone in every respect though, which ChrisIII mentioned - Laura Kinney. They thought she died, so they made a new version of her, who kept the Wolverine mantle. Her other self turned out to be alive and became Talon, but has now been killed off. Since the two Lauras co-existed for a while, that makes Laura have the same status as Ben Reilly. She found out before Krakoa that she was actually Sarah Kinney and Logan's daughter, basically by IVF, and not a clone, but thanks to recent events, she's now a clone for real.

I can see this causing real drama in a future Ms. Marvel story. If her parents ever learn that Kamala is Ms. Marvel, a mutant, and died and had to be resurrected, how will they react? Especially when they learn Kamala's in a new body - meaning the one that got stabbed in ASM #26 must've been disposed of somewhere (which explains Peter having her bangle until the end of her The New Mutant mini, he's probably the one who got rid of the body). I can see the Khans having a crisis of faith. It's more important than ever for Kamala to maintain her secret identity.

[MarkRodriguez09]

Yeah, Black Widow is a clone - it seems the Red Room had their own Resurrection Protocols before the mutants did. Works the exact same way too - they create a duplicate body based off DNA samples, and then implant the memory using a psychic (Ursa Major was working with random psychic operatives in the Red Room's case).

And yeah, on the same logic a lot of mutants are clones now as well. The difference between them and the Scarlet Spiders though, is that there's only one running around, as the clone is only made after the original died. Unlike Ben and Kaine, who have Peter Parker's memories up to the point they were made and only after that diverge into their own people. One mutant really is a clone in every respect though, which ChrisIII mentioned - Laura Kinney. They thought she died, so they made a new version of her, who kept the Wolverine mantle. Her other self turned out to be alive and became Talon, but has now been killed off. Since the two Lauras co-existed for a while, that makes Laura have the same status as Ben Reilly. She found out before Krakoa that she was actually Sarah Kinney and Logan's daughter, basically by IVF, and not a clone, but thanks to recent events, she's now a clone for real.

I can see this causing real drama in a future Ms. Marvel story. If her parents ever learn that Kamala is Ms. Marvel, a mutant, and died and had to be resurrected, how will they react? Especially when they learn Kamala's in a new body - meaning the one that got stabbed in ASM #26 must've been disposed of somewhere (which explains Peter having her bangle until the end of her The New Mutant mini, he's probably the one who got rid of the body). I can see the Khans having a crisis of faith. It's more important than ever for Kamala to maintain her secret identity.

I know, it raises too many questions, especially in a comic book world where gods, devils and various forms of the afterlife exist. Kamala is for all intents and purposes dead, and this is a copy running around that thinks it's the original. The real Kamala is dead and buried.

It's a concept that bothers me. Assuming there is an afterlife and we're allowed to kinda check in on our loved ones every now and then like they do in the TV and movies, I personally would feel awful that all my friends and family forgot about me and are just carrying on wth which is pretty much an imposter of me. And worse, that they KNOW it's a fake me and are pretending to carry on anyway. Has there ever been a comic book that dealt with that sort of story? The closest I could think of offhand, even though it's not the same, is Spawn coming back to find out his wife thought he was (permanently) dead and moved on and married someone else. I mean, I guess the Madylyn Pryor also comes close, but I think think we had Jean watching from heaven as Cyclops banged not-Jean.

I just feel clones cheapen life and is a bad way to deal with death. I know there's more liberty with that in the world of comics since clones are one of the multitude of ways to bring back 'we thought you were dead' characters, but IMO non-evil non-imposter clones only work if they seek out their own lives like Ben Reily did.

I'd like to see the Kamala clone break out and feel she wants to be her own person rather than being forced to live up to the expectations of the person she was copied from, just in time to bring back the real Kamala through comic book shenanigans.

[Rift]

Mutant resurrection is the real deal, regardless of the cloned body elements. The existence of the Waiting Room proves that their actual souls are involved.

What that means for Beast and Laura? Who knows. They could very well be real as well, somehow. But Marvel isn't exploring thngs because they've just given up on trying.

[TheMaker1610]

I may be getting some details wrong, but here is what I remember about the following cloning/resurrection instances:

-Ben Reiley's (as Jackal) cloning process: 100% considered as resurrections of the deceased individual, as their actual souls are involved somehow (Dr. Strange said as much, when scaning Dr. Connors' family, during Spencer's Spidey run)

-Red Room's Natasha's cloning: It's basically Krakoa Resurrection Protocols, before Krakoa became a thing. May be considered as a resurrection as well.

-Krakoa Resurrection Protocols: Aside from some oddball instances, like Laura/Talon case, it is 100% considered as full-on resurrection of the individual

-Peter Parker's Clones: Each of them are considered their own individuals, and each having a separate soul as well:
-Laura Kinney's clones from Taylor's run: Same as Peter's

[marhawkman]

Short version: clones are real people... if the editor wants them to be.

the in-universe logic is minimal at best. Whether the person making the copy had the ability to put the soul into the clone... is.. non-existent.

Like Hydro-MJ.... Hydro-MJ shared many of the memories of the real MJ and love Pete the same way the real MJ did. The in-universe logic behind why is completely absent. In fact, Jackal seemed surprised by it. Yes, it had also happened when Jackal had cloned Hydro-man, but Jackal hadn't expected it to happen then either. Jackal had no idea why either of them remembered the lives of the person they were cloned from at all.

As it turns out... Hydro-MJ was a separate person since the original wasn't dead. Not really sure about Hydro-man...

[Riv86672]

Short version: clones are real people... if the editor wants them to be.

the in-universe logic is minimal at best. Whether the person making the copy had the ability to put the soul into the clone... is.. non-existent.

Like Hydro-MJ.... Hydro-MJ shared many of the memories of the real MJ and love Pete the same way the real MJ did. The in-universe logic behind why is completely absent. In fact, Jackal seemed surprised by it. Yes, it had also happened when Jackal had cloned Hydro-man, but Jackal hadn't expected it to happen then either. Jackal had no idea why either of them remembered the lives of the person they were cloned from at all.

As it turns out... Hydro-MJ was a separate person since the original wasn't dead. Not really sure about Hydro-man...

^^^Thats nuts!

It’d be interesting if celestial entities came down and went after all these clones/clone makers, as they’re tapping into the afterlife and the souls resting there.

Kind of like the episode of Quantum Leap where the Devil went after Sam for putting right what he had put wrong. It was cool to see the unintended spiritual ramifications of the science.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I seem to recall Ben Reily cloned the Lizard's son, Billy, who survived the clone resurrections and who Dr. Strange later confirmed was the OG Billy.

Could just be that cloning the mind and body summon the original soul back to the material plane.

[marhawkman]

^^^Thats nuts!

It’d be interesting if celestial entities came down and went after all these clones/clone makers, as they’re tapping into the afterlife and the souls resting there.

Kind of like the episode of Quantum Leap where the Devil went after Sam for putting right what he had put wrong. It was cool to see the unintended spiritual ramifications of the science.

Well, that's the funny part... the Jackal's clones in TAS.... didn't have the SOUL of the original, just the memories and personality. 'cause... MJ was cloned when she was NOT dead.

[marhawkman]

I seem to recall Ben Reily cloned the Lizard's son, Billy, who survived the clone resurrections and who Dr. Strange later confirmed was the OG Billy.

Could just be that cloning the mind and body summon the original soul back to the material plane.

I have seen that get used in some settings yeah.

[Riv86672]

Well, that's the funny part... the Jackal's clones in TAS.... didn't have the SOUL of the original, just the memories and personality. 'cause... MJ was cloned when she was NOT dead.

^^^Even worse, as far as Marvel’s “Heaven” might find the idea of scientifically creating soulless human shells offensive!

[Wildling]

^^^Even worse, as far as Marvel’s “Heaven” might find the idea of scientifically creating soulless human shells offensive!

Invasion of the Body Snatchers in Marvel?