LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Drops Of Venus]

Comparing Terrigenesis to transitioning isn't just a stretch, it's a gross insult.

You just said that the process was forced on the nuhumans against their will, that it sometimes turned their bodies monstrous and many were unhappy with the change.

trans people are maligned. They are forced to get multiple psychiatric assessments before they can even begin the process of transitioning.

Just to clarify: I wasn't trying to imply that terrigenesis would be a parallel for gender transition in every instance, but that it could be in specific stories, if the writer wants it to. The girl from the one-shot was not unhappy or disgusted by her change; she was proud of it and wanted to be able to show it. That's a different context.

So it's the last day of Pride Month, and unless I missed it, I don't think Marvel ever even acknowledged it.

They sort of did with one of those Marvel Minute videos in which the host said Wiccan was being added to the Puzzle Quest game in honor of Pride Month. But yeah, they could've done better.

Its going to take a while to get used to the Dora Milaje speaking to other people besides the Panther and each other though--especially Okoye, since she was the original silent and stoic Dora Milaje from back when Christopher Priest introduced the concept.

I'm glad about the change, because the Dora Milaje concept is good, but certain aspects of it didn't age very well. So the fact that we now have Doras with more independence, individuality and sexual liberation is a pretty great way to make the BP mythology seem more progressive as it should be.

[Tycon]

That argument of Inhumans vs Mutants is a tricky and sensitive one that I have strong feelings about -- particularly the US vs THEM aspect of it all. Neither community shares a singular vision or belief system about the other. Despite the horrendous and tragic effect the T-Cloud had on the mutant population -- we ought not blame or shame the entirety of the Inhuman collective/community for the bad and/or misguided (that mileage will vary) actions of a select number. Its no different than blaming ALL mutants for the actions of the Brotherhood, or blaming ALL muslims for the Taliban, or blaming ALL religion because of the assaults made by specific men. Its not right or fair to do so. We all identify with many different and shared quantifying "community" characteristics but we are still all individuals. Sweeping blanket statements hurt and hinder progress toward tolerance and acceptance. Me, personally --I would hate to be pigeon holed by my being a WHITE MALE, for example. I am not my oppressive conquering ancestors nor am I (some of)my racist colleagues who quietly hate on POC. We should endeavor to NOT quantify a group by its least favorable examples. :-)

And here's where shit gets HEAVY(?) y'all --(and brings it deeper into comics) so please keep those open-minded-hats on when I say-- one of the few aspects of Remender's Uncanny Avengers that I appreciated the most was the offering of MULTIPLE perspectives on the topic of what it means to be a mutant. That book shed some very REAL light on a very important truth that despite sharing a commonality, we are all very much products of our environment and personal life experiences and those experiences are going to inform how we process our identities and how we relate to adversity, empathy, and prejudices. The fact that Alex, Wanda, Rogue, Sunfire, and Wolverine all had SUCH different perspectives on how being a mutant does or does not define them.
That same truth should be applied to the Inhumans, in this particular narrative.

This topic is super fresh and raw for me right now, having participated in an Employee Research Group Panel for our LGBTQA employees at the Hospital I work at. Each panelists story had a common thread but each person had a unique and often eye opening perspective on their identity as an individual and as a member of the community and a member of the "work" community. And when the panel opened the floor for questions, one speaker made a point of acknowledging to the audience: "Our voices and stories are not the BE ALL END ALL authorities on LGTBQA culture. We can truly only speak for ourselves and on that which we've experienced and witnessed so please understand that what holds true for US may not hold true for EVERY member of our community because we are all different, just as all straight people are different and hold different opinions and perspectives."
That hit close to home for me, as a nerd, and especially as a gay nerd who was ushered into comics via the X-Men narrative.

Forgive the momentary soap boxing.
Much LOVE.

okay. Lemme dig into this.

Let’s get one thing straight: When you are in a privileged position of power or exist in a society where you benefit from a system that disenfranchises others, it is your duty to help dismantle that system. That is why you can’t compare, say straight ppl (who aren’t allies) contributing to a society that actively discriminates against the LGBT+ community to Muslims and the Taliban. The two aren’t remotely similar. Another accurate analogy is a white person that refuses to engage as an activist for black rights or against police injustice. The problem doesn’t just circulate around what “your ancestors did” because thinking that the injustices and systems of slavery ended when slavery itself ended is foolish. And that’s putting it nicely. Can y’all please learn not to be so quick to disconnect yourselves from what your family may or may not have done. There’s a difference between blanket statements and understanding power dynamics, white supremacy, heteronormative societies, and systems with oppression rooted in them. There isn’t just individualized bouts of antiblackness existing in Asian-American community, there’s a strong root of complicity in the oppression of Black Americans. And the discussions surrounding such always get shut down just because both parties are racial minorities. And please…….you aren’t being pigeon holed…..stop.

And there is ALSO a big difference between sharing your experience within a certain identity and using your identity to put down others for expressing love in said culture. That’s why no one really cared for Havok’s M-Word Speech. He wasn’t just saying “My x doesn’t define me, I’m my own person”, he was rejecting the idea of the word ”mutant” as a whole, saying it represented everything he hated. That it causes “divisiveness”. It screams “We’re all one race: the human race” and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s a dumb concept.

So circling back to the Inhumans, no they aren’t responsible for the release of the Terrigen Cloud nor are they responsible for what Medusa’s final decision was. The Inhumans (such as Synapse & Moon Girl) clearly disapproved of the use of the Cloud and with a stronger sentiment, maybe things would have turned around. The worst thing you can do when change is needed is stay silent.

And the mutants were being jerks, no one is saying otherwise. The message falls flat for a bunch of other reasons.

[Holt]

The fundamental problem with the Inhumans is that I don't think they work as an oppressed minority. The person who said they would work better as an immigrant metaphor was spot on; the whole major appeal of the Inhumans is that they were basically the X-Men if the X-Men were the House of Lannister. The interesting stuff comes from the royals and the political intrigue in their hidden city, not from them being oppressed groups in the human world. It's telling that by far the best books to come out of the Inhumans push were Once and Future King and the Black Bolt series, neither of which heavily delved into all of the NuHumans stuff. Ms. Marvel and Moon Girl are awesome, but they're also the two Inhumans who are arguably the least tied to the franchise. You could change their origins to them being mutants or having gotten powers from a lab accident and their stories would still be more or less the same as they are now.

[Dermie]

I'm glad about the change, because the Dora Milaje concept is good, but certain aspects of it didn't age very well. So the fact that we now have Doras with more independence, individuality and sexual liberation is a pretty great way to make the BP mythology seem more progressive as it should be.

True enough, and I agree it is a positive change for them--and certainly a necessary one for them to be able to do a project like this and use the Dora Milaje as more than just BP supporting players. Its just going to take a bit of getting used to, that's all.

[Beetle]

I think they were referring to the process when it was controlled in Attillan and an Inhuman made a conscious decision to undergo the process . Being isolated and super into genetics tbe outcomes were truly "unlocking a young inhuman genetic potential

But the process and the societal expectations surrounding terrigenesis are so messed up and not at all analogous to transitioning. The Attilan Inhumans literally worshiped Terrigen (and the Inhuman king who discovered it), they built their entire society around terrigenesis, they had an actual Genetics Council with the power to object to unions and marriage.

They had selective breeding because they specifically wanted the offspring to be useful to Attilan society. Terrigenesis was not just encouraged, it was expected for almost every single person in Attilan (the only real exception being Karnak because they didn't think he would have a useful transformation so they sent him to be a monk instead.) And once a young Inhuman underwent terrigenesis they were placed into a role in society based on what their powers were suited for rather than any personal interest, intellect or skills. A genetics based caste system.

Just to clarify: I wasn't trying to imply that terrigenesis would be a parallel for gender transition in every instance, but that it could be in specific stories, if the writer wants it to. The girl from the one-shot was not unhappy or disgusted by her change; she was proud of it and wanted to be able to show it. That's a different context.

But looking at the actual history of terrigenesis in comics I think it would be a mistake to try to draw that parallel, when for most nuhumans we've seen it was an accident forced on them by weather patterns. Even if you take away the literal eugenics, I just cannot see the comparison to a trans person's experience.

[BroHomo]

But the process and the societal expectations surrounding terrigenesis are so messed up and not at all analogous to transitioning. The Attilan Inhumans literally worshiped Terrigen (and the Inhuman king who discovered it), they built their entire society around terrigenesis, they had an actual Genetics Council with the power to object to unions and marriage.

They had selective breeding because they specifically wanted the offspring to be useful to Attilan society. Terrigenesis was not just encouraged, it was expected for almost every single person in Attilan (the only real exception being Karnak because they didn't think he would have a useful transformation so they sent him to be a monk instead.) And once a young Inhuman underwent terrigenesis they were placed into a role in society based on what their powers were suited for rather than any personal interest, intellect or skills. A genetics based caste system


.

Well shit you're right lol.
Ive only really read 1 inhuman story. And it was the Awwwesssome Marvel Knight TPB. And consider that to be good trans metaphor

[Fokken]

I think perhaps my previous post was interpreted as hostile and/or antagonistic?

Apologies if that is the case. That was not my intention. I stand by what I said, but I didn't mean to gas light anyone.



To clarify further on the pigeon hole thing about being a white male -- I didn't mean to imply I would be pigeon holed here on the message boards.
In my day to day life, as a staff person at the Welcome Center of a Pediatric hospital that works closely with security I am often accused of being prejudiced or racist or bigoted for aiding them in enforcing our security/safety policies -- it is those kinds of instances that I'm referring to, when I said "I would hate to be pigeon holed for being a white male" because... my experiences working with the public and specifically those who HAVE experienced prejudice and mistreatment often believe I am doing so as well, because of the necessity of my job's policies and their life experiences.
Again, not my intention to anger or upset anyone. Just pointing out that everyone's perspective is unique -- which I suppose is further evidenced by the reaction to my post.

EDIT: Then again, perhaps I am the one who made the error of reading "hostility" where there was none

[Force de Phenix]

The fundamental problem with the Inhumans is that I don't think they work as an oppressed minority. The person who said they would work better as an immigrant metaphor was spot on; the whole major appeal of the Inhumans is that they were basically the X-Men if the X-Men were the House of Lannister. The interesting stuff comes from the royals and the political intrigue in their hidden city, not from them being oppressed groups in the human world. It's telling that by far the best books to come out of the Inhumans push were Once and Future King and the Black Bolt series, neither of which heavily delved into all of the NuHumans stuff. Ms. Marvel and Moon Girl are awesome, but they're also the two Inhumans who are arguably the least tied to the franchise. You could change their origins to them being mutants or having gotten powers from a lab accident and their stories would still be more or less the same as they are now.

That's your opinion. I loved All New Inhumans, and actually found Once and Future Kings mediocre. Their whole major appeal is that they're like mutants, but with a backstory of them being made to kill, but found the beauty in what should have been their curse, and lived respecting diversity within their group. I think they do work well as an oppressed minority because they've always been oppressed and pushed away. They had to go to the Moon because of humans. The inhumans are a species, and not a team, a kingdom, a country, etc. They are a people. They created a hidden city to avoid human hate and problem. Like Utopia/Genosha. They had their culture, and it wasn't the best because they were heavily monitered, but I think it was Marvel's way of telling us "just because something is tradition or culture, doesn't mean it's good." And many times, getting rid of culture can be a good thing (genital mutilation, bull fighting, etc.).
If we want to get into metaphors, think of it like this: an Japanese person won't be discriminated against for being Japanese in Japan, but will probably be discriminated against outside. Inhumans mixing with humanity and mutantkind isn't a bad thing. Ms Marvel and Moon Girl are inhumans. If they chose not to be around the royals that much, it just goes to show how inhumans were being written to mix more with humans after being hidden in Attilan for so many years.

[Triniking1234]

Daken closes off Pride Month by penetrating Jimmy. Thanks, Marvel.

[Knives]

It has nothing to do with Marvel but after two frustrated marriages one in Marvel and another in DC I'm happy to have a happy ending in Steven Universe at least.

spoilers:

Two characters deciding to get married and who are well known by the LGBT community really made me happy the episode was aired today and I recommend it for everyone if you want to see there are several videos on Youtube. The marriage of Ruby and Sapphire Made of Honor is the 22nd episode of the fifth season of Steven Universe, the 150th episode overall, airdate July 5, 2018 in Cartoon Network.

end of spoilers

[Tiamatty]

The Week In Gay! Earlier than usual, because I'm currently unemployed!

X-Men Gold #31 has a moment of Anole, and a moment of Iceman.

Astonishing X-Men #13 has a moment of Anole.

Marvel Rising has Koi Boi, briefly, and America Chavez enters the book.

Not much of a week for gay. Anything I missed?

[Danileriver23]

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere here, but one of Luke Cage Season 2 main characters is gay, and they are one of my favorite characters in the show. I know it's not a movie, but its closer to the movies than SHIELD, so Marvel seems to be working it's way towards those LGBT characters on screen.

Regardless of that, I'd recommend to watch it as it is one of the better season of the Netflix shows. That being say, unlike the other season 2's, you really need to watch season 1.

[Wiccan]

I know it's not a movie, but its closer to the movies than SHIELD, so Marvel seems to be working it's way towards those LGBT characters on screen.

Well, come thru alternative facts LOL.

[Drops Of Venus]

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere here, but one of Luke Cage Season 2 main characters is gay, and they are one of my favorite characters in the show. I know it's not a movie, but its closer to the movies than SHIELD, so Marvel seems to be working it's way towards those LGBT characters on screen.

Regardless of that, I'd recommend to watch it as it is one of the better season of the Netflix shows. That being say, unlike the other season 2's, you really need to watch season 1.

If by SHIELD you mean the TV show Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D., I gotta disagree on that one. The latest episodes just reinforced how AOS is still the only Marvel show that put some effort into synchronizing with current movies. All of the other shows won't even take place during Avengers: Infinity War just so they don't have to deal with it. Anyway, the LGBTQ representation on Luke Cage was more than welcome and I wish AOS would actually have queer characters in the main cast already. They haven't really tried at all ever since Joey and it's a pity.

[Dermie]

If by SHIELD you mean the TV show Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D., I gotta disagree on that one. The latest episodes just reinforced how AOS is still the only Marvel show that put some effort into synchronizing with current movies. All of the other shows won't even take place during Avengers: Infinity War just so they don't have to deal with it. Anyway, the LGBTQ representation on Luke Cage was more than welcome and I wish AOS would actually have queer characters in the main cast already. They haven't really tried at all ever since Joey and it's a pity.

They also have Agent Piper, but the references to her sexuality are so brief and quick people barely notice them.