LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Wiccan]

LOL. Just from reading this description or whatever it is, I find this dumb. And wouldn't it be heteronormative? I don't think this concept is something that you can just put hetero or homo in front of the normative based on what kind of relationship it is... Cause it's about heteronormative concepts supposedly being applied to gay characters. Well I don't really know lol.

[Dermie]

What did they retcon?
Her mother was a good charitable person. She became a vampire
And Kate(?) doesn't have "real connections to other Avengers".
She works with them now...but all of them do or have.

Exactly. None of this stuff about her family changes who Kate is as a character -- it just adds new elements to her backstory and to her supporting cast/rogues gallery.

Honestly, the biggest thing that has changed Kate since the early YA days was when she stopped living off her father's money and had to start making her way on her own. That was a huge status quo shift for a character who grew up rich (and in the early days of the YA was the Tony Stark/Janet Van Dyne member of the group providing funding and resources).

Now she was living on her own, struggling to make ends meet, etc. That is what turned Kate's world upside down and started the character developing into new directions. I'll be honest that I do sometimes miss 'rich Kate', but I still love her as the new Kate that has developed along the way. She is still the same person at the core--but like any young adult she has started to change and grow in some new ways.

[Drops Of Venus]

LOL. Just from reading this description or whatever it is, I find this dumb. And wouldn't it be heteronormative? I don't think this concept is something that you can just put hetero or homo in front of the normative based on what kind of relationship it is... Cause it's about heteronormative concepts supposedly being applied to gay characters. Well I don't really know lol.

Well, if you look at the definition of homonormativity, you can see where the author was coming from. The references for the paper also include other work that uses the same word, so it was probably very intentional. I didn't even know that was an actual word people used, but I understand why they do. I don't even necessarily agree with the premise of the paper, but it IS an opinion I've seen other people sharing in fandom, so, like I said, I'm interested in reading what someone has to write about it on a literal academic level.

[Holt]

So, someone published a paper on Wiccan and Hulkling being a ''homonormative'' couple, which sounds like... an interesting concept, to say the least.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...er_performance

I requested the full text and they said I might get it from e-mail. Not sure if I'm getting it, but I'm interested in reading it. Either way, it's pretty cool that someone out there thought they were relevant enough to be the subject of this kind of publication.

I'd be interested in reading the full thing. Right off the bat, I think I'd dispute the idea that Wiccan being femmey made him more acceptable to straight readers. On the contrary, I've seen a lot of straight readers make the claim that they prefer gay characters who "aren't so in your face about being gay" a number of times. I.E., I've seen people lament the late Freedom Ring for supposedly being more of a "man's man" than a typical gay superhero, even though that's somewhat debatable in itself.

[Sutekh]

I'd be interested in reading the full thing. Right off the bat, I think I'd dispute the idea that Wiccan being femmey made him more acceptable to straight readers.

I feel like whoever designed the look and feel for Hulkling and Wiccan did a pretty cool job of mixing that up, actually. Wiccan gets cast as 'the girl' of the couple (which is pretty heteronormative in itself, to assume that one of them has to take a female role, when both are dudes). Visually, Teddy seems to have more superficially 'female' traits like sculpted hair and face jewelry (and shows more skin, in comics traditionally for the ladies, and Namor....), than Billy, who has, IMO, a more, shall we say, 'thrown together' look. A focus on his appearance is even part of his backstory with his friend exploiting his ability to change his appearance. Most relevantly, which one drives the story, and which one stands behind and more or less 'supports her man?' It's almost always Billy driving the story, while Teddy is, at best, in the passenger seat, holding the map.

Looking at the two of them, a straight perspective might automatically assume that the bigger beefier one is the 'butch' and the shorter slimmer one is the 'femme,' but a closer reading of their appearances would suggest that Billy's the 'dude' and Teddy's the 'girlfriend.' (Then again, this could just be a side-effect of Billy getting so much more focus than Teddy that it sometimes comes off as Billy is the protagonist and Teddy is little more than 'the protagonist's girlfriend...')

Ideally, they should be more evenly splitting the focus. (And any argument about whether or not one of them *should* be taking on a femme role in a gay relationship or if that's too 'heteronormative' or even subtly oppressive or whatever, imposing girl+guy relationship standards on a guy+guy relationship is a bit out of my depth.)

[Holt]

I feel like whoever designed the look and feel for Hulkling and Wiccan did a pretty cool job of mixing that up, actually. Wiccan gets cast as 'the girl' of the couple (which is pretty heteronormative in itself, to assume that one of them has to take a female role, when both are dudes). Visually, Teddy seems to have more superficially 'female' traits like sculpted hair and face jewelry (and shows more skin, in comics traditionally for the ladies, and Namor....), than Billy, who has, IMO, a more, shall we say, 'thrown together' look. A focus on his appearance is even part of his backstory with his friend exploiting his ability to change his appearance. Most relevantly, which one drives the story, and which one stands behind and more or less 'supports her man?' It's almost always Billy driving the story, while Teddy is, at best, in the passenger seat, holding the map.

Looking at the two of them, a straight perspective might automatically assume that the bigger beefier one is the 'butch' and the shorter slimmer one is the 'femme,' but a closer reading of their appearances would suggest that Billy's the 'dude' and Teddy's the 'girlfriend.' (Then again, this could just be a side-effect of Billy getting so much more focus than Teddy that it sometimes comes off as Billy is the protagonist and Teddy is little more than 'the protagonist's girlfriend...')

Ideally, they should be more evenly splitting the focus. (And any argument about whether or not one of them *should* be taking on a femme role in a gay relationship or if that's too 'heteronormative' or even subtly oppressive or whatever, imposing girl+guy relationship standards on a guy+guy relationship is a bit out of my depth.)

Very well said!

[BroHomo]

So, someone published a paper on Wiccan and Hulkling being a ''homonormative'' couple, which sounds like... an interesting concept, to say the least.

I can totally see this....

[Beetle]

He hasn't been seen since the Children's Crusade back in 2012, and it seems like there's been a deliberate attempt to avoid showing or mentioning him (even an instance of him appearing in a photograph in Age of Ultron had to be redrawn to replace him with America Chavez). The closest we've gotten to any sort of concrete explanation was Kieron Gillen saying his original plan for Young Avengers vol. 2 involved Eli, before he was told by his editors Eli was off-limits. This has extended to other media, as all the recent video game appearances the Young Avengers have made (such as Avengers Academy and Lego Avengers) have used practically everyone from the team except Eli.

It's never been officially confirmed, but the consensus seems to be there might be legal issues with the character of Isaiah Bradley, whom Eli was spun off from. Adding some credence to this is that Josiah X, another hero who was spun off from Isaiah, has not been seen or mentioned in quite some time either, nor has Isaiah himself.

Jeremy Whitley, writing of the Unstoppable Wasp series, tweeted this a few months back which basically confirms that there is a legal issue

https://mobile.twitter.com/jrome58/s...11774156066817

[Fokken]

Well said, Sutekh.

The discussion / debate on the subject of masc vs femm -- specifically when applied to my most favorite Marvel couple -- is fascinating and you bring up really excellent behavioral points (Billy being thrown together vs Teddy making deliberate aesthetic decisions, etc) that I believe often go unrecognized.

Its so easy/simple for viewers to make casual assumptions based around size alone. Teddy is large and thereby represents strength and strength represents masculinity. Additionally the subconscious inevitable connective tissue of his name being tied to the HULK, and comparably Billy is linked intrinsically to the Scarlet Witch. Masculine energy vs Feminine energy. Punching vs. Magic.

Its all very fascinating. Doubly so when we find ourselves applying our own life experience to those assessments.

[Alphaxman]

What's everyone's opinion on Northstar's marriage? I know most don't like Kyle, mainly because of his perceived neediness or selfish behavior. But my problem wasn't with Kyle per-se, I just think it's hard for any superhero relationship, regardless of sexuality, to seem interesting when one of the lover is a non-hero. Double with the fact that despite being the first, Northstar is C-list hero who is barely on the team and is not popular enough to have his own series.
I would have rather see Jean-Paul unmarried and gotten closer with Bobby -- not so they would get together romantically, but for Jean-Paul to be that friend Bobby needed when handling his self-acceptance. Maybe after a few years of tight friendship then maybe a relationship.


Another question: Who else is pissed that Mystique hasn't had a relationship, sexual or otherwise, with another woman since the death of her one true love, Irene? Everyone knew Claremont made it perfectly clear those two were in a relationship, but every writer since has couple Raven with men, from Logan, Gambit, to even Bobby of all people.

[Alphaxman]

What's everyone's opinion on Northstar's marriage? I know most don't like Kyle, mainly because of his perceived neediness or selfish behavior. But my problem wasn't with Kyle per-se, I just think it's hard for any superhero relationship, regardless of sexuality, to seem interesting when one of the lover is a non-hero. Double with the fact that despite being the first, Northstar is C-list hero who is barely on the team and is not popular enough to have his own series.
I would have rather see Jean-Paul unmarried and gotten closer with Bobby -- not so they would get together romantically, but for Jean-Paul to be that friend Bobby needed when handling his self-acceptance. Maybe after a few years of tight friendship then maybe a relationship.


Another question: Who else is pissed that Mystique hasn't had a relationship, sexual or otherwise, with another woman since the death of her one true love, Irene? Everyone knew Claremont made it perfectly clear those two were in a relationship, but every writer since has couple Raven with men, from Logan, Gambit, to even Bobby of all people.

[Fokken]

I enjoy non-heroes and heroes being romantically tied. Its a fun outsider-looking-in perspective to explore. I'm particularly fond of when these non-hero-type-love-interests make commentary on absurdities of the hero life.

That being said, I've never warmed to Kyle -- but I feel that isn't his fault. I don't DIS like Kyle. Its my own bias. I'm one of those "I wish he and Bobby wound up having some kind of something" readers.
I'm not saying it had to be love or marriage but it was an angle I very much wanted to see explored, however briefly.

[Sutekh]

What's everyone's opinion on Northstar's marriage?

Kyle bores the crap out of me. I'd rather JP be single, or hooked up with (or married to) someone who is somehow relevant to the super-community (not necessarily a fellow super-hero, but a doctor who specializes in mutant / superhuman / xeno-medicine, or whatever, so that there's a reason for him to appear when JP does, or even, gasp, to appear *by himself* without being JP's plus one).

That said, this hypothetical boyfriend/husband could just as easily *be* Kyle, if he was written / developed in that sort of direction, wanting to get more involved in Jean-Paul's life, and getting involved with other mutants / superheroes / etc. so that he *becomes* more than just 'the old ball-and-chain' that nobody wants to see cluttering up the scene. (Obviously he's not suitable to be a superhero doctor, but perhaps his businessman aspect could be transitioned into a more PR / media / or even political bent? Kyle as mayor of some Canadian city that opens itself up as a mutant sanctuary, or appointee to the UN for mutant relations, or whatever, could give him something story-relevant to do other than 'be Jean-Paul's husband' or the hostage-of-the-week that JP has to rescue again.)

Another question: Who else is pissed that Mystique hasn't had a relationship, sexual or otherwise, with another woman since the death of her one true love, Irene? Everyone knew Claremont made it perfectly clear those two were in a relationship, but every writer since has couple Raven with men, from Logan, Gambit, to even Bobby of all people.

Mystique's sexuality puzzles me. I've never seen any indication that she's had feelings for anyone other than Destiny, which could suggest that she's not even bisexual, but a full on gay woman who is totally mercenary about sleeping with any man she's using that week, being no more sexually attracted to (or in love with) that man than with a vibrator or a box of tissues.

But I've never seen any indication that she's had that sort of feelings for *anyone* other than Irene, and a sample size of 1 doesn't really 'prove' anything. It might not be 'women' that she's into, either. It might only ever have been 'Irene.'

Perhaps she just finds men easier to manipulate with sex.

[Alphaxman]

Kyle bores the crap out of me. I'd rather JP be single, or hooked up with (or married to) someone who is somehow relevant to the super-community (not necessarily a fellow super-hero, but a doctor who specializes in mutant / superhuman / xeno-medicine, or whatever, so that there's a reason for him to appear when JP does, or even, gasp, to appear *by himself* without being JP's plus one).

That said, this hypothetical boyfriend/husband could just as easily *be* Kyle, if he was written / developed in that sort of direction, wanting to get more involved in Jean-Paul's life, and getting involved with other mutants / superheroes / etc. so that he *becomes* more than just 'the old ball-and-chain' that nobody wants to see cluttering up the scene. (Obviously he's not suitable to be a superhero doctor, but perhaps his businessman aspect could be transitioned into a more PR / media / or even political bent? Kyle as mayor of some Canadian city that opens itself up as a mutant sanctuary, or appointee to the UN for mutant relations, or whatever, could give him something story-relevant to do other than 'be Jean-Paul's husband' or the hostage-of-the-week that JP has to rescue again.)



Mystique's sexuality puzzles me. I've never seen any indication that she's had feelings for anyone other than Destiny, which could suggest that she's not even bisexual, but a full on gay woman who is totally mercenary about sleeping with any man she's using that week, being no more sexually attracted to (or in love with) that man than with a vibrator or a box of tissues.

But I've never seen any indication that she's had that sort of feelings for *anyone* other than Irene, and a sample size of 1 doesn't really 'prove' anything. It might not be 'women' that she's into, either. It might only ever have been 'Irene.'

Perhaps she just finds men easier to manipulate with sex.

That could be nice, but the X-Men hardly use their doctors as it is. And lets not forget how Scott is not using Xian's business ties right now. It hasn't been explained what happened to her business, so in theory, she should simply walk in and take it back over. Hopefully Prodigy is running things and he could have been a great IT guy. There is no need for this "We need to hide out in a bar's basement" crap. Xian is up there with Warren and Emma when it comes to money and resources.


As for Raven, I think it's has to do with Marvel's aversion with Lesbianism and/or Bisexuality. It's more "fun" and limiting to see the bad-girl/vixen use her feminine wilds to seduce stupid men than manipulating women.

[Drops Of Venus]

I'd be interested in reading the full thing. Right off the bat, I think I'd dispute the idea that Wiccan being femmey made him more acceptable to straight readers. On the contrary, I've seen a lot of straight readers make the claim that they prefer gay characters who "aren't so in your face about being gay" a number of times. I.E., I've seen people lament the late Freedom Ring for supposedly being more of a "man's man" than a typical gay superhero, even though that's somewhat debatable in itself.

I totally get your point, but that's looking at Billy as an individual character. When it comes to gay couples, it's undeniable that A LOT of straight people project heteronormative/homonormative expectations onto them. I bet we ALL have heard the infamous ''who's the guy and who's the girl of the relationship'' question at some point, right? And they don't even realize why that is a bad question. So maybe that's the point that the author was trying to make? Not that a fem-perceived gay guy will always be embraced individually, but that in a romantic setting, it's easier for straight audiences to ''digest'' a gay couple if they perceive one of them as the female and one of them as the male. I actually agree with that notion, even if I don't necessarily agree that that is the intention behind Billy's and Teddy's portrayal, from my personal point of view. I've said this before, but part of what makes them so relatable to me is the fact that I've never interpreted neither of them on either extreme side of the fem/masc spectrum. They've always come off as somewhere in the middle, and that's part of their appeal to me, as I pretty much feel the same as a gay guy. But different people are gonna have different interpretations of those characters, and I can respect that.

I feel like whoever designed the look and feel for Hulkling and Wiccan did a pretty cool job of mixing that up, actually. Wiccan gets cast as 'the girl' of the couple (which is pretty heteronormative in itself, to assume that one of them has to take a female role, when both are dudes). Visually, Teddy seems to have more superficially 'female' traits like sculpted hair and face jewelry (and shows more skin, in comics traditionally for the ladies, and Namor....), than Billy, who has, IMO, a more, shall we say, 'thrown together' look. A focus on his appearance is even part of his backstory with his friend exploiting his ability to change his appearance. Most relevantly, which one drives the story, and which one stands behind and more or less 'supports her man?' It's almost always Billy driving the story, while Teddy is, at best, in the passenger seat, holding the map.

That's an interesting perspective. I can see your point regarding their look in civilian form, but what about their hero look? Specially after McKelvie's design, I think Billy has a more flamboyant costume in comparison to Teddy, which is something that could also influence people's visual notion of him being more fem-perceived, since superhero designs tend to stick out more than civilian designs. Also, it's funny that you mentioned that, because in the preview pages we got for the upcoming Death's Head miniseries featuring Billy and Teddy, it's actually the opposite: Teddy had a more thrown together look, while Billy was wearing a bunch of accessories and even fake long black nails. That's probably the most fem-perceived civilian look he's ever had.