LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Dipter]

The semi-incestous aspect of their relationship is the only thing that makes it interesting, otherwise it would be a typical dull romance. The messed-up implications of falling in love with yourself adds an element of dark comedy.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

The semi-incestous aspect of their relationship is the only thing that makes it interesting, otherwise it would be a typical dull romance. The messed-up implications of falling in love with yourself adds an element of dark comedy.

I think the whole thing leans heavier into narcissism, which isn’t totally out of place when talking about Loki.

[Wiccan615]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure there would be no romantic angle at all if Sylvie wasn’t a woman. Typical.

[Silvermoth]

Just a reminder though, bisexual people who have romances with the opposite gender are still bisexual

[witchboy]

Just a reminder though, bisexual people who have romances with the opposite gender are still bisexual

Absolutely, but we can't pretend that the way their interest in the same sex is portrayed with equality to their opposite sex partners.
Look at Deadpool. Marvel loves to claim diversity credit for him being pan, but the 616 version has never had a male love interest while he's had a lot of female love interests. His interest in men is treated as a joke.

[Wiccan615]

Absolutely, but we can't pretend that the way their interest in the same sex is portrayed with equality to their opposite sex partners.
Look at Deadpool. Marvel loves to claim diversity credit for him being pan, but the 616 version has never had a male love interest while he's had a lot of female love interests. His interest in men is treated as a joke.

Exactly. I understand that bi erasure is a real thing and bisexual people do indeed get their queer identity invalidated by other members of the queer community if they ever date or show a passing interest in the opposite sex. That’s a real and valid concern.

But not all conversations about fictional representations of ships and intimacy in relation to bisexual characters by corporations and artists are necessarily about that. Historically and currently, most bisexual characters have had their interest in the same sex downplayed or erased, Loki in the comics for example has this issue as well. There is a large disparity between how same sex intimacy and love is allowed to be portrayed vs any kind of opposite sex intimacy and that’s a conversation that needs to happen and the assumption shouldn’t be that these critiques are meant to invalidate bi ppl in opposite sex relationships. I promise you, Disney probably isn’t doing it for them.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

At this point with the MCU I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that Frenchie in Moon Knight is openly gay and that Wiccan (the real Wiccan, sorry little boy from Haunting of Hill House) and Hulkling show up before I turn 40.

[Krakoa]

Exactly. I understand that bi erasure is a real thing and bisexual people do indeed get their queer identity invalidated by other members of the queer community if they ever date or show a passing interest in the opposite sex. That’s a real and valid concern.

But not all conversations about fictional representations of ships and intimacy in relation to bisexual characters by corporations and artists are necessarily about that. Historically and currently, most bisexual characters have had their interest in the same sex downplayed or erased, Loki in the comics for example has this issue as well. There is a large disparity between how same sex intimacy and love is allowed to be portrayed vs any kind of opposite sex intimacy and that’s a conversation that needs to happen and the assumption shouldn’t be that these critiques are meant to invalidate bi ppl in opposite sex relationships. I promise you, Disney probably isn’t doing it for them.

This. if you want to see bisexual rep done well, look at a show like Legends of Tomorrow. Sara and Constantine are both bi, and both have been shown in same-gender and opposite-gender relationships and hook-ups over the course of the series. Sara's main relationship that seems to be endgame is same-gender, and Constantine's is opposite-gender. No one is mad that Constantine's biggest relationship is now opposite-gender -- he's been clearly shown to have romantic & nonromantic same-gender relationships too. It's not equivalent to being mad that a series says a character is bi in a throwaway line but only ever shows them in opposite-gender relationships.

[Wiccan]

This. if you want to see bisexual rep done well, look at a show like Legends of Tomorrow. Sara and Constantine are both bi, and both have been shown in same-gender and opposite-gender relationships and hook-ups over the course of the series. Sara's main relationship that seems to be endgame is same-gender, and Constantine's is opposite-gender. No one is mad that Constantine's biggest relationship is now opposite-gender -- he's been clearly shown to have romantic & nonromantic same-gender relationships too. It's not equivalent to being mad that a series says a character is bi in a throwaway line but only ever shows them in opposite-gender relationships.

Loki was a 6 episode season, it's not really comparable to Legends... I do hate Sylvie/Loki and think it's only happening due to hetero-normativity, and I do wish he had a male love interest. But I feel like complaining just that he got a female love interest isn't really fair?

I think they deserve more slack for the genderfluid thing. People expected, if not Loki himself being "Lady Loki" for a while like in the comics, at least the variant being a trans/genderfluid Loki. But there was none of that. They added the "Sex: Fluid" thing and then talked about it on a bunch of interviews like they were doing something. But it was objectively not shown. While "he wasn't shown as bi because he was into a woman for 3 episodes" is, honestly, not such a valid criticism by itself.

[Wiccan615]

Loki was a 6 episode season, it's not really comparable to Legends... I do hate Sylvie/Loki and think it's only happening due to hetero-normativity, and I do wish he had a male love interest. But I feel like complaining just that he got a female love interest isn't really fair?

I think they deserve more slack for the genderfluid thing. People expected, if not Loki himself being "Lady Loki" for a while like in the comics, at least the variant being a trans/genderfluid Loki. But there was none of that. They added the "Sex: Fluid" thing and then talked about it on a bunch of interviews like they were doing something. But it was objectively not shown. While "he wasn't shown as bi because he was into a woman for 3 episodes" is, honestly, not such a valid criticism by itself.

I think the issue isn’t “he wasn’t shown as bi”, it’s the very conventional context his queerness is placed in and what that means in a broader context that fails to showcase our lives in any meaningful capacity beyond one liners, winks and nods. 3 episodes is actually a decent amount of screen time too, that’s almost the equivalent of a movie. And personally, I’m getting tired of conventional standards being allowed to exist within a 3 episode timeframe but never any of the alternative.

But importantly: the cisnormativity of it all is intrinsically linked to the heteronormativity of it all. It’s why people often complain about both. Sylvie, unlike the other Loki variants, was given her own name and persona, distinct from Loki, she isn’t a genderfluid version of him, but moreso a cis woman version of him who is conveniently given the role of love interest in a cinematic universe that hasn’t shown any same sex intimacy during its 10 year tenure. Her role as someone who could have been a gender fluid variant and analysis of Loki was foregone to fit conventional standards of heteronormativity. This is a valid criticism of the series from people who wanted more on either category.

[Dermie]

The Week In Gay:

Champions #8

Excalibur #22

Thor #15 - Loki is in this issue

Way Of X #4 - Pixie and Loa are in this issue

That's it for confirmed LGBT appearances, but also out this week were...

X-Corp #3 - Jamie Madrox is part of the cast and is sort-of bisexual due to his gay dupes. So far none of them have appeared in the series, to the best of my knowledge.

Absolute Carnage: Scream - Andi Benton may be gay or bisexual but her series got cancelled during the Covid shutdown last year before that subplot could be developed. She will continue to appear in other chapters of this "Absolute Carnage" event, so its possible we may eventually find out one way or the other.

Spider-Woman #13 - Lindsay McCabe, Jessica Drew's best friend and roommate from the original SPIDER-WOMAN series finally reappeared out of comics limbo in this issue. Way back when Lindsay first appeared it was implied she might be gay or bisexual but no one ever followed up on it afterward--not even in Chris Claremont's run on the book, which is surprising given his long history of lesbian subtext. It would be cool if Karla Pacheco revisited that and outed Lindsay as bi, but we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Lucas 35]

With Genis coming back, I really want to read him meeting and interacting with Teddy! But I wonder what the chances are that Steck’ee will ever appear in the comics? Genis is straight, right?

[Dermie]

With Genis coming back, I really want to read him meeting and interacting with Teddy!

I'd love to see Genis and Teddy get to meet too. Teddy has barely met most of his superhero family -- he's finally started spending a bit of time with Carol Danvers recently, and now he's on a team with an alternate version of Phyla. He's also never had any contact we've seen with Elysius or Starfox either, who are part of his extended 'family'.

Of course, we'll have to wait and see exactly how "back" Genis really is. The cover image we have for him shows Genis back in his "Legacy" outfit rather than either of his Captain Marvel outfits or even the Photon outfit he was wearing at the time of his death. So this might be a time-displaced Genis as opposed to Genis actually returning to life. Not that he couldn't still interact with Teddy--but it would just take on a different tone in those circumstances.

But I wonder what the chances are that Steck’ee will ever appear in the comics?

I tend to doubt that s/he'll be appearing in this particular arc...although its not impossible. Given Ewing's love of bringing back obscure characters, I wouldn't rule out Steck'ee turning up in one of his cosmic titles at some point, if the opportunity arose.

Genis is straight, right?

He's never been identified as another but straight, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is bi. I sort of figured that way Mar-Vell's three kids can cover a range of the sexual spectrum--Teddy likes boys, Phyla likes girls, and Genis likes both.

[Kieran_Frost]

Exactly. I understand that bi erasure is a real thing and bisexual people do indeed get their queer identity invalidated by other members of the queer community if they ever date or show a passing interest in the opposite sex. That’s a real and valid concern.

But not all conversations about fictional representations of ships and intimacy in relation to bisexual characters by corporations and artists are necessarily about that. Historically and currently, most bisexual characters have had their interest in the same sex downplayed or erased, Loki in the comics for example has this issue as well. There is a large disparity between how same sex intimacy and love is allowed to be portrayed vs any kind of opposite sex intimacy and that’s a conversation that needs to happen and the assumption shouldn’t be that these critiques are meant to invalidate bi ppl in opposite sex relationships. I promise you, Disney probably isn’t doing it for them.

This! I get that it's so hard to do a bisexual character justice in a limited run, because you ALSO don't want to fall into the 'bisexuals are so sexually promiscuous' trope... BUT... esp. at a company like Disney, that is both behind the times AND intentionally dragging their feet... one-line on the same-sex attraction then focus on the 'comfortable' side of a bisexual's interests in a hetro-normative setting is a little... unfulfilling. Let's put it that way. And that's fine, they can do what they like it's their characters, but it won't get any praise for pushing boundaries or being bold or being an ally.

Let's be honest, it's not like Disney hasn't shown us men and women together since their first ever movie with Snow White and the Prince. A man and a woman being attracted to one another...

[Gitagon]

Also sexuality isn't all about sex and relationships. You can show a character is bi/pan even when they aren't in a relationship.

The scene with Loki at the beginning of Thor Ragnarok is a perfect example of a missed opportunity. Loki is posing as Odin and has a host of women around him basically the way old kings did. For that scene with a bi or pan character, I'd expect to have at least both men and women doing the pampering, feeding and massaging. The scene itself is not sexual & has nothing to do with relationships but subtly sends the message that Loki is straight since he only surrounds himself with beautiful women even when he's just relaxing.