LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[BroHomo]

I mean, you can't backpedal from something that wasn't even explicit in the first place. My guess is that this is going to be Hickman's thing during his entire run: he's gonna tease and tease, make jokes about it, but nothing real will come out of it because even if he wanted to, it's extremely unlikely editorial would allow him to officially out all those major X-Men characters simultaneously. And I, for one, will not eat it up, because I know better than to praise queerbaiting in the year of 2020.

You're gonna miss out on some really good stories dude

[Drops Of Venus]

You're gonna miss out on some really good stories dude

I didn't say I was skipping the stories, but that I simply won't praise queerbaiting as representation, because it's not. The one gay couple Hickman has actually written is currently being forbidden from even being together, so maybe he should focus on that instead.

[skyvolt2000]

Bring on the inevitable fan art!

YOu ain't looking hard enough-it's out there already

[scourge]

I mean, you can't backpedal from something that wasn't even explicit in the first place. My guess is that this is going to be Hickman's thing during his entire run: he's gonna tease and tease, make jokes about it, but nothing real will come out of it because even if he wanted to, it's extremely unlikely editorial would allow him to officially out all those major X-Men characters simultaneously. And I, for one, will not eat it up, because I know better than to praise queerbaiting in the year of 2020.

I mean they'll backpedal even from implications and teasing the first chance they get.

[BroHomo]

I didn't say I was skipping the stories, but that I simply won't praise queerbaiting as representation, because it's not. The one gay couple Hickman has actually written is currently being forbidden from even being together, so maybe he should focus on that instead.

I guess if thats how you choose to see it. There was already gay subtext between those. If readers choose to think while Cyke and Wolvy are taking in the view of the Earth from the Moon, Scott lets his own one-eyed cyclops out. there's nothing really to contradict it. Im not saying they should be counted as gay characters....but that whole exchange was pretty gay.

It took me a full minute to figure out you meant Destiny and Mystique, They just had it confirm on panel they were in a relationship so thats pretty awesome
but lol Well its not like they were ever together for a large amount of time....Destiny died in 1988 or 89 Hickmans didn't force them apart.

[VolcanikTiger86]

A) am straight (which is part of why I automatically assume a guy and a girl with any sort of playful banter are a potential couple, 'cause that's the way I've been programmed by decades of media).

Well damm, now I feel like a idiot, my bad however not the first I doubt it will be the last though nowadays I don't automatically assume someone is straight, I just try not to think about it

B) have no clue what you are on about.

Well basically tyranny is related to a tyrant which history tells us is a bad thing, saying the words relating to het expectations when anywhere between 90 and 93% of the world may have similar expectations is basically saying that the LGBT community should consider us tyrants and bad, I don't think being gay is bad (its not normal for me but would be for a gay man/woman) however its kinda annoying when you have that minority rebel against insults but we should be ok if they call the group one million moms one million morons or call people dinosaurs because we don't agree with everything they say instead of disagreeing with them without insults, I might be overreacting but I ********* hate special treatment and I can't begin to describe how much I do, don't want it, never will, never have.

C) will avoid the term anyway, since it bugs you.

Its not the term that bugs me, its the double standard, for example I have seen LGBT/allies insult and degrade others who speak out about them and then say they want to be treated as equals, its like they are trying to punishing the people of today for stuff that happened when I wasn't even a twinkle in my moms eye, you want equality fine that is something that I am happy to do but special treatment yep that's not happening ever. As for love Victor I disagree with them moving it even though I had no interest in watching it and no I didn't watch the film either though obviously loads of people did which is fine. Stonewall if he was made to be gay he should be gay if not well thats a issue hickman should address.

They definitely have to do better. It's like everytime they take a step forward, there's a step back.

This is a prime example of what i am talking about, i think they should do better but lets be clear they dont have to do it, they absolutely do not have to do better for queer rep,
it would be nice if they stopped dicking about however it is a business at the end of the day any business primary goal is to make money and in order to do that they need to open in as many areas as possible and some arent as liberal as the US

I think this Twitter thread perfectly encapsulates why people are frustated with Disney and their decisions when it comes to LGBTQ content lately.

Yeah i'm sorry but here is the thing i didnt know about Love Victor until some of the LGBT crowd gave off about its move so i wasnt buzzing about it being under the disney umbrella i truthfully didnt give a ****, a move i disagree with btw, i was unaware of the gay character in lizzie mcguirre and here is a question do carlos and seb appear in hsm:tmts and are they still gay.
Because if they arent then that backlash i can understand however scenes being cut from trailers and demos happens all the time and sometimes those scenes/lines can be awesome.

If it was a one-time thing, maybe it would've been easier to let it go, but it's one let down after the other...

I'm just checking you want about 90% of the population of the planet to be ok with content being under the Disney umbrella which is meant to be a family network because you think that there is nothing wrong with it and that it is normal and Kids should see it and learn that its ok and if parents disagree then Disney a company who has a large kid fanbase should just do it anyway.
I'm not trying to annoy anyone (though i more than likely will) I'm just fact checking.

[Drops Of Venus]

This is a prime example of what i am talking about, i think they should do better but lets be clear they dont have to do it, they absolutely do not have to do better for queer rep,
it would be nice if they stopped dicking about however it is a business at the end of the day any business primary goal is to make money and in order to do that they need to open in as many areas as possible and some arent as liberal as the US

Are you really trying to argue over semantics here? Have to do better, should do better... who cares? The point is the same. And no, I don't see the problem in suggesting that a company has to do something better, when said company is literally setting out to do exactly that thing. Disney is the one who's promising all of this representation and patting themselves on the back for it, so the least they can do is make sure they actually do a decent job at it. And if they don't, yeah, consumers will tell them how they're feeling. Feedback is a part of business too.

The international market excuse is outdaded, specially for a streaming platform where content is different in each country. Disney doesn't need all the homophobic countries for one streaming show to be successful. The Mandalorian was a hit even before Disney+ went global. And you just have to look at other streaming services to know that it is possible to give people lots of LGBTQ representation on a global platform. Netflix is right there.

Yeah i'm sorry but here is the thing i didnt know about Love Victor until some of the LGBT crowd gave off about its move so i wasnt buzzing about it being under the disney umbrella i truthfully didnt give a ****, a move i disagree with btw

Ok, and what about it? Love, Simon was a popular movie and a lot of people were excited about the idea of a spin-off on Disney+. Not sure how you not knowing or not caring about it is relevant to this discussion.

and here is a question do carlos and seb appear in hsm:tmts and are they still gay.
Because if they arent then that backlash i can understand however scenes being cut from trailers and demos happens all the time and sometimes those scenes/lines can be awesome.

They are gay on the show, but the complaint is not about them not being gay, but about the fact that they used images of them as promotional images for episodes, only to cut those scenes from said episodes. People are complaining because the content they watched was not what was advertised.

Also, it's important to note how different HSMTMTS is from Love, Victor: the HSM show only has supporting gay characters, their romance is not a big part of the story, and they were the only couple on the show who didn't get to kiss (shocking). Love, Victor was supposed to have a gay lead, and the entire show was going to revolve around queer stories, so there was obviously no way to downplay it or throw it in the background. It's not hard to see why one was more easily ''digestible'' for Disney than the other.

I'm just checking you want about 90% of the population of the planet to be ok with content being under the Disney umbrella which is meant to be a family network because you think that there is nothing wrong with it and that it is normal and Kids should see it and learn that its ok and if parents disagree then Disney a company who has a large kid fanbase should just do it anyway.
I'm not trying to annoy anyone (though i more than likely will) I'm just fact checking.

''Parents who disagree'' is a nice way to say homophobes. And yeah, Disney should do it anyway, because that's the thing: they already have queer content on their streaming. The bigots who complain about anyone who's not cisgender or straight existing WILL still complain about those things. You won't ever win trying to appease those people, because there is no compromise with them. They would never be ok with something tame like HSMTMTS, so their reaction to Love, Victor wasn't going to be any different. If it was up to them, you would never get any queer content ever. So what's the point? Just put all your queer content there anyway.

And this is not only a concern for LGBTQ viewers, because I am seeing a pattern of people complaining about the lack of variety on Disney+. The service being so kid-oriented is leaving little content to the people who can actually pay for the app: the adults. Disney+ might be great for the nostalgia and the stuff for kids, but will they survive in the long picture if they can't diversify their content? The Mandalorian was by far their biggest original production, and it was a more mature show. So, if anything, Disney should be taking a hint from that and realizing that their sanitized, kiddy content can only get them so far.

[Wiccan]

I can't believe someone actually came here to defend Disney and even saying they don't have to do anything regards representation... Like, why are you even on this thread?

[VolcanikTiger86]

Are you really trying to argue over semantics here?

Yes

Have to do better, should do better... who cares?

Me

The point is the same.

No it actually isn’t well to me anyway, for example we don’t have to wear clothes or live in houses we do because well its more comfortable I should wear clothes for my health and the fact its illegal according to man.
One is a request that Disney should listen to, the another is a demand, someone comes up to me and says you have to write a slash story for me; my response would be no I don’t now **** off.
Sorry I don't do well with demands

And no, I don't see the problem in suggesting that a company has to do something better, when said company is literally setting out to do exactly that thing.

From what you have told me they have queer content on Disney+ which is a long way from the rep they had in the 90s or even 5-10 years ago.

Disney is the one who's promising all of this representation and patting themselves on the back for it, so the least they can do is make sure they actually do a decent job at it.

Since I’m the guy who is going to argue the semantics with you did they say in a statement We promise that Love Victor will be on Disney+, we promised to do better with queer rep on Disney+ or did they say something like we are commission a love Simon spinoff to go on our new streaming service.
The semantics to me is important because its the message the public should be receiving

And if they don't, yeah, consumers will tell them how they're feeling. Feedback is a part of business too.

True, but you aren’t giving them feedback well constructive feedback your turning round and saying they have to do what you say because reasons

The international market excuse is outdaded

Something that can be perceived as anti LGBT is outdated; color me shocked.

specially for a streaming platform where content is different in each country.

Valid point, I’m sorry I didn’t think of that

Disney doesn't need all the homophobic countries for one streaming show to be successful.

No but I’m pretty sure that they will need them for it to be a successful platform

The Mandalorian was a hit even before Disney+ went global.

Yeah and the worldwide main stream media about baby yoda didn’t have anything to do with that

And you just have to look at other streaming services to know that it is possible to give people lots of LGBTQ representation on a global platform. Netflix is right there.

At the minute Disney+ is successful with the content that they have, would it be nice if they had a bigger diverse catalog yes it would be however the thing has only be running for about 3-4 months and disney are labeling it a success.

Ok, and what about it?

I'm one person who wasn’t buzzing or even knew about it how many more were in the same boat, in todays society perception seems to be very important

Love, Simon was a popular movie and a lot of people were excited about the idea of a spin-off on Disney+.

Unfortunately not as popular as you think, after all it scored fifth, seventh and ninth at the box office and didn’t even make a 100 million, it did very well and made the studio a profit however it didn’t set the box office on fire and I think that could be going against its spinoff. If it had placed one and made lots of money then I believe chances are it would go on Disney+ however it didn’t, I could be wrong but I think its a risk and reward scenario not saying I agree9I don't but it could be what Disney are thinking, that its a niche show that evolved to be a tv-14 and it just wasn't going to be worth the risk to put it on Disney+, I could be grasping at straws with Disney wanting to put all the big money stuff on Disney+ however is Deadpool on Disney+ because that would prove me wrong.

Not sure how you not knowing or not caring about it is relevant to this discussion.

Because of the story, for example say 20% of the population was buzzing about Love Simon being on Disney+, 45% didn’t care one way or another and 35% complained, what should Disney do listen to the 20% or listen to the thirty what is the bigger risk to their bottom line.
It could be the other way around where 20% complained and 35% were buzzing but I don’t think that is what is happening here, I know LGBT people who are happy it moved because they already have Hulu and don’t need to get Disney+.

They are gay on the show, but the complaint is not about them not being gay, but about the fact that they used images of them as promotional images for episodes, only to cut those scenes from said episodes.

Which happens all time in tv series and movies that don’t have any queer content

People are complaining because the content they watched was not what was advertised.

People finding things to complain about (shocking)

Also, it's important to note how different HSMTMTS is from Love, Victor:

Sorry no I don’t think its important to note this, i think everyone is aware of the differences thank you.

Love, Victor was supposed to have a gay lead, and the entire show was going to revolve around queer stories, so there was obviously no way to downplay it or throw it in the background. It's not hard to see why one was more easily ''digestible'' for Disney than the other.

Actually I can think of a at least a couple ways that you could do it, most would go over like a fart in a space suit but there are ways to downplay it at least for the first season after that it gets dicey but still doable.

''Parents who disagree'' is a nice way to say homophobes.

Of course because if you don’t agree with every word that the LGBT community say then you are a homophobe; (lovely)

And yeah, Disney should do it anyway,

Color me shocked Disney should listen to a minority and pander to them and give them all the content they want because why not, you know that sounds to me anyway like special treatment i could be wrong I’m only human after all however DOV please review my last post and see how i feel about that.

because that's the thing: they already have queer content on their streaming.

Which is a step in the right direction

The bigots who complain about anyone who's not cisgender or straight existing WILL still complain about those things.

Seems familiar actually

You won't ever win trying to appease those people, because there is no compromise with them.

Why am I getting Deja vu here

They would never be ok with something tame like HSMTMTS, so their reaction to Love, Victor wasn't going to be any different.

No it would be worse actually

If it was up to them, you would never get any queer content ever.

And you do, 4 years ago Love Victor wouldn’t be moved to Hulu it would be canned period as in not getting made ever. At least it will be made and available for people to see if they want.

So what's the point? Just put all your queer content there anyway.

Regardless of any criteria if its queer content it should go on Disney+, do I need to ask you to review my earlier post again.

And this is not only a concern for LGBTQ viewers, because I am seeing a pattern of people complaining about the lack of variety on Disney+.

Its early days its only been available for less than 6 months after all, if it was the same next year then i would be worried.

Disney+ might be great for the nostalgia and the stuff for kids, but will they survive in the long picture if they can't diversify their content?

Which they may or may not have planned for, but things change all the time i hope Disney would get with the program but i think they are hoping that the nostalgia gets them through the first year and then they start with more new content.

The Mandalorian was by far their biggest original production, and it was a more mature show. So, if anything, Disney should be taking a hint from that and realizing that their sanitized, kiddy content can only get them so far.

Maybe they are taking that hint we have no idea about what they are planning.

I can't believe someone actually came here to defend Disney

You know arguing with you and DOV is not the same as defending Disney actually it just proves that you missed MOST OF THE ******* POST because I repeatedly said that they should do better

and even saying they don't have to do anything regards representation...

Sorry but they don’t I doubt Disney would go out of business in the next year if they didn’t give in to a minority of fans, though I do think they shouldn’t be afraid to have that kind of content on Disney+ however when it comes to love Victor I have heard people who think it will be better on Hulu.

Like, why are you even on this thread?

Ok so you don’t want to discuss things you just want yes men who will agree with your every word, thanks that’s informative.

[scourge]

Yes
Of course because if you don’t agree with every word that the LGBT community say then you are a homophobe; (lovely)

...that's not even remotely what is going on here.

[VolcanikTiger86]

...that's not even remotely what is going on here.

Maybe not to you but to me that's exactly what is going on here, because he never asked the reason why they disagree I don't think he cared he saw the words Parents disagree oh that's homophobic he didn't ask its just that sounds like a easy way to homophobic so its homophobic and I have seen it in the past and it shuts down dialog.
He didn't ask for ages or anything, I know that I wouldn't be happy with my kids watch NCIS, Vampire Diaries, Criminal Minds, Pretty Little Liars and a whole host of other shows until they turn somewhere between 13-15 and not all of those shows have queer content still not letting them seen it, I mean I wouldn't let my 6-7 year old(when I have them) watch criminal minds no way at all. CM has no queer content at all while none that I remember anyway still not letting them see it however Voltron not a problem, She-Ra not a problem.

[scourge]

Maybe not to you but to me that's exactly what is going on here, because he never asked the reason why they disagree I don't think he cared he saw the words Parents disagree oh that's homophobic he didn't ask its just that sounds like a easy way to homophobic so its homophobic and I have seen it in the past and it shuts down dialog.
He didn't ask for ages or anything, I know that I wouldn't be happy with my kids watch NCIS, Vampire Diaries, Criminal Minds, Pretty Little Liars and a whole host of other shows until they turn somewhere between 13-15 and not all of those shows have queer content still not letting them seen it, I mean I wouldn't let my 6-7 year old(when I have them) watch criminal minds no way at all. CM says no queer content at all while none that I remember anyway still not letting them see it however Voltron not a problem, She-Ra not a problem.

Because there is no valid reason.
Opinions are for things like "I don't like coffee" not "I think people are something monsterous that I need to hide from children because they're LGBT"
And treating "queer content" like its automatically something that has to be age gated is a pretty homophobic and insulting response in general.

[H-E-D]

Yeah, treating queer content as inappropriate for children, while treating equivalent straight content as appropriate, that’s homophobic.

[skyvolt2000]

This is a prime example of what i am talking about, i think they should do better but lets be clear they dont have to do it, they absolutely do not have to do better for queer rep,
it would be nice if they stopped dicking about however it is a business at the end of the day any business primary goal is to make money and in order to do that they need to open in as many areas as possible and some arent as liberal as the US

Being open meanings you include content for everybody and stop worrying about backlash.

Netflix saw backlash to Dear White People tv series in fact folks cancelled their subscriptions over the TITLE of that show.

Yet that show lasted 3 years.

Because at the END of the day-you, me nor anyone is obligated to watch LGBTQ content. It is a CHOICE.

So Disney should be free to include it. Because once upon a time that argument over what gets made-was targeting BLACK PEOPLE.


Also remember what YOU don't do-someone ELSE will or will take.

[Wiccan]

Ok so you don’t want to discuss things you just want yes men who will agree with your every word, thanks that’s informative.

I mostly didn't want to discuss because I think you're wrong and won't change my mind, but why you're on this thread is kind of a legimate question. Maybe you think this thread is supposed to be about debates like say the politics one on the CBR community tab, but it's not. Well, maybe it can be used like that now, but it's at least not how it was originally intended.

This was made as an appreciation thread for LGBT characters in Marvel, and only changed from "Appreciation" to "Discussion" on the title cause not everyone is gonna like every LGBT character and having it as appreciation meant we couldn't express any negativity about them. But it's obviously a thread filled with people who care about LGBT representation, so obviously someone who's against it wouldn't be quite welcome.

This has also gone off-topic, this discussion started because of Marvel shows being made on Disney+ and what it could mean for the MCU adapting gay characters, but it has gone quite distant from that correlation already.