LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Darthfury78]

One relationship, one time--that lasted for YEARS, and was the only relationship we've seen that she actually had an emotional investment in. If were going to pretend that Mystique isn't bisexual and define her as either straight or gay, then I'd argue that there is more evidence of her being a lesbian than being straight simply based on the depth of her emotional attachment to Irene and the lack of an emotional attachment to pretty much every man she's ever bedded.

I find the idea of dismissing Mystique's bisexuality simply because she's only been seen with one woman (thus far) to be a bit offensive, to be honest. Bisexual doesn't mean equal 50/50 attraction to both sexes; it isn't a numbers game. I think the depth of emotion that Mystique showed for Destiny (and the number of years their relationship endured) should be proof enough that it wasn't just some one-time thing.

Speaking of Mystique, we could say the same thing about Black Cat as well. Assuming that she's bisexual, Felicia certainly had an emotional investment in Spider-Man unlike anyone else she's been with over the year. It's the only relationship that Felicia feels an emotional connection with. It would be interesting to see if Mystique and Black Cat would work together.

[Tiamatty]

Speaking of Mystique, we could say the same thing about Black Cat as well. Assuming that she's bisexual, Felicia certainly had an emotional investment in Spider-Man unlike anyone else she's been with over the year. It's the only relationship that Felicia feels an emotional connection with. It would be interesting to see if Mystique and Black Cat would work together.

Black Cat does generally seem to lean heterosexual, for the most part. She's not averse to getting involved with a woman, judging by the offhand single-panel reference to having had at least one girl, but it seems like she mostly looks at and for men.

[Kieran_Frost]

I find the idea of dismissing Mystique's bisexuality simply because she's only been seen with one woman (thus far) to be a bit offensive, to be honest. Bisexual doesn't mean equal 50/50 attraction to both sexes; it isn't a numbers game. I think the depth of emotion that Mystique showed for Destiny (and the number of years their relationship endured) should be proof enough that it wasn't just some one-time thing.

100% agreed. But bisexuality is also about being attracted to BOTH sexes; Mystique hasn't been attracted to both sexes, she's been attracted to men and one specific woman (she's "gay for Destiny"). It's not about numbers (obviously), but one woman does not a bisexual make. Certainly on the Kinsey scale it's entirely possible to have a long term relationship with the same gender and yet still identify as heterosexual. The problem really is Mystique's sexuality has never been discussed, not properly. We know about Destiny because of vague (and even coded) terminology. No writer has really explored what they had (their relationship was only confirmed, to my knowledge, after Destiny had been dead for years). Does Mystique identify as bisexual? We don't know that, we know she loved Destiny, that is the only thing we know about her same sex relationships.

Now I agree MANY LGBT stars have as vague references/moments as Mystique, and we count them. BUT when it comes to the FIRST LGBT solo star, we need more than that (in my opinion). And (unlike most other LGBT characters) Mystique has HANDS DOWN the most appearances. She's the most used LGBT star by over 100+ issues, and yet many small time LGBT characters have far more solidified sexuality. Considering how many mini-series/solo series/team comics/and comics in general she's been in/on; the fact we don't really know much about her sexuality is troubling/disappointing. It's not through lack of exposure, I can tell you that.

The complaint is that she routinely shows both sexual and romantic interest in men, but, aside from Destiny, has never shown any sexual or romantic interest in women. At some point, it starts to look suspicious when a character touted as one of their most prominent LGBT characters never actually demonstrates that she's LGBT.

And hell, it's not like it'd be that tough to show it. She doesn't even need to have a girlfriend. Next time she has to break in somewhere, instead of having her seducing a male guard, have her seduce a female guard. Why is it, whenever she's showing an interest in someone, it always - without exception - has to be a male? She's clearly a sexual being - she's someone who enjoys having sex, even when there's no real purpose behind it. So why is every single person she chooses to have sex with a male? Given her history, can she actually be considered bisexual, or is she straight-with-an-exception?

You say she's had no emotional attachment to the men. I would say that's patently bullshit. She was in love with Forge, certainly. It's strongly implied that she had feelings for Iceman. What complicated those relationships was that she didn't want to have feelings for them. She didn't want that level of vulnerability, and so she often acted against those men in order to prove she didn't care about them.

Beautifully put.

This question has nothing to do with Marvel but does DC have any LGBT characters? The only one I know of is Bat-Woman.

I would say Batwoman and Apollo&Midnight are the "most famous/prominent" DC LGBT stars; I could be wrong. I don't read DC. From what I hear Marvel definitely does better at representation (on a meaningful level) than DC.

[Fringe Division]

It's really weird how a couple of people continually insist, "it's not about numbers" and then go on to make it exactly about that, sometimes within the same sentence.

[Kieran_Frost]

Currently, I'd say Mystique is 1 on the Kinsey Scale (Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual)

It's really weird how a couple of people continually insist, "it's not about numbers" and then go on to make it exactly about that, sometimes within the same sentence.

If that's all you took from the debate, then I think that's a shame.

[Fokken]

One relationship, one time--that lasted for YEARS, and was the only relationship we've seen that she actually had an emotional investment in. If were going to pretend that Mystique isn't bisexual and define her as either straight or gay, then I'd argue that there is more evidence of her being a lesbian than being straight simply based on the depth of her emotional attachment to Irene and the lack of an emotional attachment to pretty much every man she's ever bedded.

I find the idea of dismissing Mystique's bisexuality simply because she's only been seen with one woman (thus far) to be a bit offensive, to be honest. Bisexual doesn't mean equal 50/50 attraction to both sexes; it isn't a numbers game. I think the depth of emotion that Mystique showed for Destiny (and the number of years their relationship endured) should be proof enough that it wasn't just some one-time thing.

Well said, Dermie.

100% agreed. But bisexuality is also about being attracted to BOTH sexes; Mystique hasn't been attracted to both sexes, she's been attracted to men and one specific woman (she's "gay for Destiny"). It's not about numbers (obviously), but one woman does not a bisexual make. Certainly on the Kinsey scale it's entirely possible to have a long term relationship with the same gender and yet still identify as heterosexual. The problem really is Mystique's sexuality has never been discussed, not properly. We know about Destiny because of vague (and even coded) terminology. No writer has really explored what they had (their relationship was only confirmed, to my knowledge, after Destiny had been dead for years). Does Mystique identify as bisexual? We don't know that, we know she loved Destiny, that is the only thing we know about her same sex relationships.

Now I agree MANY LGBT stars have as vague references/moments as Mystique, and we count them. BUT when it comes to the FIRST LGBT solo star, we need more than that (in my opinion). And (unlike most other LGBT characters) Mystique has HANDS DOWN the most appearances. She's the most used LGBT star by over 100+ issues, and yet many small time LGBT characters have far more solidified sexuality. Considering how many mini-series/solo series/team comics/and comics in general she's been in/on; the fact we don't really know much about her sexuality is troubling/disappointing. It's not through lack of exposure, I can tell you that..

Well, buddy, as much as I appreciate your enthusiasm (which is always, always strong) one can't really say "100% agreed" followed immediately by "But". And one also can't really say "Its not about the numbers" followed immediately by an explanation contradicting that previous statement.

Additionally, to argue that "Mystique hasn't been attracted to both sexes, she's been attracted to men and one specific woman (she's "gay for Destiny")." is also flawed in that we really can't quantify how "attracted" she is to women, simply because we haven't seen her ACT on it. And this is where her villainous tendencies may also play a factor -- given that she's not opposed to using sex to manipulate people (Sabertooth and Iceman, for example) just like Daken did. And the "one woman does not a bisexual make" is also -- for lack of a better, less negative term -- insensitive to bisexuals, or sexual identity as a whole -- because it is how someone identifies. Its like, since Monica Rambeau recently took up relaxing her hair, is it a fair statement for other black women to argue "She isn't black... enough"?

Its a much more complex issue.

It's really weird how a couple of people continually insist, "it's not about numbers" and then go on to make it exactly about that, sometimes within the same sentence.

[Kieran_Frost]

as much as I appreciate your enthusiasm (which is always, always strong)

To argue that "Mystique hasn't been attracted to both sexes, she's been attracted to men and one specific woman (she's "gay for Destiny")." is also flawed in that we really can't quantify how "attracted" she is to women, simply because we haven't seen her ACT on it. And this is where her villainous tendencies may also play a factor -- given that she's not opposed to using sex to manipulate people (Sabertooth and Iceman, for example) just like Daken did. And the "one woman does not a bisexual make" is also -- for lack of a better, less negative term -- insensitive to bisexuals, or sexual identity as a whole -- because it is how someone identifies. Its like, since Monica Rambeau recently took up relaxing her hair, is it a fair statement for other black women to argue "She isn't black... enough"?

Its a much more complex issue.

I agree it's a much more complex issue than "gay, lesbian or bi"; but this all stems from the comics. The comics have NOT explored, explained or focused on what Mystique is; so all we have is examples and possible theories. That's it. We don't know she's bisexual (one same sex relationship years ago doesn't mean someone identifies as bisexual). It CAN, but it doesn't have to; and no writer has ever actually explored this with Mystique. So neither of us know (and therefore, until such time as a writer actually explores this, I will continue to consider Mystique "straight with an asterix"). As you said: it's far more complex than... she is definitely bisexual (you have NO comic cannon to prove she identifies as bisexual, anymore than I have hardened proof she isn't)

It's the same way Angelina Jolie isn't really a great example of an LGBT celebrity, since she is far more famous for her heterosexual relationships than any girlfriend she used to date. I don't even know if she still identifies as bisexual??? The fact one of only two openly LGBT actors to win an Oscar (Jolie and Sir Gielgud) is in the most famous heterosexual Hollywood relationship since Liz/Burton says something, sadly. I'd love to have a writer explore Mystique's view on her sexuality... but no-one has; so it's a grey area (meaning we each can decide if we want to count it or not). I choose: no.

How dare you use Kurt against me!!! :P

[Fokken]

Did everyone enjoy the hilarity of Hulkling impersonating Agent Coulson and flirting with another SHIELD agent, in the YA portion of Original Sins?? haha

[Kieran_Frost]

Did everyone enjoy the hilarity of Hulkling impersonating Agent Coulson and flirting with another SHIELD agent, in the YA portion of Original Sins?? haha

WHAT???? Ohhhh, scans? I didn't know they had shown up in the series yet; is it good? Is it worth getting just for them? And MOST IMPORTANTLY has Deodato drawn Wiccan's Demiurge costume??? I'm imagining something like this:

[Fokken]

WHAT???? Ohhhh, scans? I didn't know they had shown up in the series yet; is it good? Is it worth getting just for them? And MOST IMPORTANTLY has Deodato drawn Wiccan's Demiurge costume???

The Young Avengers WON'T be appearing in the MAIN Original Sin storyline, so don't expect any Deodato Wiccan --- or Wiccan of any kind for that matter.
The story will focus on Teddy, David, Noh Varr, and the Hood, and its in a SEPARATE book confusingly titled "Original Sins" -- plural. Each issue has a mini stories in it, along with an ongoing YA story (5 issues total)

I found myself shocked by how much I enjoyed the YA portion, despite the artist making the kids look like they were left in the bathwater a little too long (all pruney).
I even laughed out loud at a few parts.

[Kieran_Frost]

The Young Avengers WON'T be appearing in the MAIN Original Sin storyline, so don't expect any Deodato Wiccan --- or Wiccan of any kind for that matter.
The story will focus on Teddy, David, Noh Varr, and the Hood, and its in a SEPARATE book confusingly titled "Original Sins" -- plural. Each issue has a mini stories in it, along with an ongoing YA story (5 issues total)

I found myself shocked by how much I enjoyed the YA portion, despite the artist making the kids look like they were left in the bathwater a little too long (all pruney).
I even laughed out loud at a few parts.

WHAT??? It's out already???? How did I miss this???

[Fokken]

Here is a cover image for you to search your LCS for:

[Kieran_Frost]

Thanking yous kindly. Will buy it when I go tomorrow.

[Dermie]

The complaint is that she routinely shows both sexual and romantic interest in men, but, aside from Destiny, has never shown any sexual or romantic interest in women. At some point, it starts to look suspicious when a character touted as one of their most prominent LGBT characters never actually demonstrates that she's LGBT.

I absolutely agree that they SHOULD show her bisexual side more often or more clearly than they do. No argument at all there. I'm just saying that her bisexual side has already been established--so having fans try to deny it just makes Marvel's tendency to overlook it even worse.

You say she's had no emotional attachment to the men. I would say that's patently bullshit. She was in love with Forge, certainly. It's strongly implied that she had feelings for Iceman. What complicated those relationships was that she didn't want to have feelings for them. She didn't want that level of vulnerability, and so she often acted against those men in order to prove she didn't care about them.

Granted. To be perfectly honest, I had forgotten about her relationship with Forge when I made my previous statement--brain fart. However, I would still argue that Mystique's relationship with Destiny showed an equally strong emotional attachment (if not stronger ) as she had with Forge...and certainly a healthier one than she had with Iceman.

100% agreed. But bisexuality is also about being attracted to BOTH sexes; Mystique hasn't been attracted to both sexes, she's been attracted to men and one specific woman (she's "gay for Destiny").

Which IS both sexes. Destiny is a woman. I get what you're saying, but the fact that we have only seen Mystique with one woman does not mean she has not been attracted to other women. As noted before Sean McKeever acknowledged her as a bisexual character when he wrote MYSTIQUE and said he had plans to introduce a new female love interest. Its a shame that the book got cancelled before he did so, since it would render this discussion moot....

The problem really is Mystique's sexuality has never been discussed, not properly. We know about Destiny because of vague (and even coded) terminology. No writer has really explored what they had (their relationship was only confirmed, to my knowledge, after Destiny had been dead for years).

It was only after Destiny's death that they were allowed to state in very clear-cut terms what the relationship was, that's true. But it WAS discussed on-panel, and displayed on-panel earlier than that. As you alluded to, there was Mystique's "leman", which means "lover". Claremont also wrote a MARVEL FANFARE story which had Mystique talk about her feelings for Destiny, and showed the two of them dancing romantically. Destiny and Mystique were basically another Northstar--not officially "out" due to Comics Code restrictions, but hinted at and implied as heavily as possible.

Now I agree MANY LGBT stars have as vague references/moments as Mystique, and we count them. BUT when it comes to the FIRST LGBT solo star, we need more than that (in my opinion).

To meet the criteria of "first LGBT solo star" the character must meet 2 criteria: is he/she LGBT and was he/she the first to have a solo book? By the actual definition of the words "first LGBT solo star" that is the only valid criteria. And by those criteria, the answer is Mystique--as long as we're talking solo ONGOING book. If we're counting miniseries and solo lead features then it would either go to Northstar, or even to Paradox who starred in two issues of MARVEL PREVIEW way back in 1980.

I agree with you that Daken's solo book was a VERY important step for LGBT representation at Marvel, and it certainly deserves credit for being the first to do several things. But to say it was Marvel's first solo series starring an LGBT character....no offense, my friend, but I think that is more a question of you playing favourites for Daken than it is an honest assessment of which LGBT character had a solo book first.

[Kieran_Frost]

Destiny is a woman. I get what you're saying, but the fact that we have only seen Mystique with one woman does not mean she has not been attracted to other women.

Agreed, but nor does it mean she IS attracted to other women. We've never seen evidence of that.

As noted before Sean McKeever acknowledged her as a bisexual character when he wrote MYSTIQUE and said he had plans to introduce a new female love interest. Its a shame that the book got cancelled before he did so, since it would render this discussion moot....

It would make the discussion moot, I agree; but sadly that never happened. While I think a writer's comments outside a comic is helpful, it's not cannon. Stonewall (for example) has never been confirmed as gay in comics, only in an interview by Hickman. Which (to me) is as disingenuous as JK Rowling outing Dumbledore in an interview after the final Harry Potter book. That doesn't mean every character has to state "I am gay/bi/transgender" but it has to be clearly/definitively alluded to (at the very least) -- like Herc sleeping with Northstar (it was a pretty clear statement, even if not spelt out).

To meet the criteria of "first LGBT solo star" the character must meet 2 criteria: is he/she LGBT and was he/she the first to have a solo book? By the actual definition of the words "first LGBT solo star" that is the only valid criteria. And by those criteria, the answer is Mystique--as long as we're talking solo ONGOING book.

For me personally I think the first LGBT on-going has to have some reference to an LGBT existence; which is why I consider Dark Wolverine (not Mystique) to be the first LGBT on-going.

I agree with you that Daken's solo book was a VERY important step for LGBT representation at Marvel, and it certainly deserves credit for being the first to do several things. But to say it was Marvel's first solo series starring an LGBT character....no offense, my friend, but I think that is more a question of you playing favourites for Daken than it is an honest assessment of which LGBT character had a solo book first.

True Daken is one of my favourites, but I like Mystique a lot too; that said I don't think that is influencing me. If Northstar (a character I'm starting to enjoy, now he's more fun; but not a character I would consider a favourite in anyway) had a solo on-going where his sexuality was never referenced, I'd make the same arguement. But even in that case, Northstar is confirmed gay, Mystique isn't confirmed bisexual. She had a relationship with a woman, that doesn't mean she is (by default) bisexual. It's all so vague with her, add to that her sexuality was never referenced in the series... it just seems pointless to count it as the first LGBT on-going (it would be a "victory" in name only). A character who might be bisexual had an on-going where only heterosexual feelings were acknowledged -- hardly worth noting, in my opinion.

But hey, each to our own. Would it help if we said Mystique is the first LGBT on-going, but Dark Wolverine is the first definitive LGBT on-going? Or "true LGBT" on-going?