LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[PretenderNX01]

Kinda dificult to produce offspring for a man and a transexual woman.

Not any more so than 2 dudes having a kid but for a while Superboy's genetic material came from Clark Kent and Lex Luthor (I think new fifty-snooze added in Lois to be more hetero-normative like Wonder Woman having a dad).

Also, as you said with gods and magic, Wanda and a robot had babies.

[Sutekh]

Since men have both an X and a Y chromosome, it's do-able with real world science to make a baby with a couple of biologically male parents. Just need an egg, scoop out the X already in it, put in the X of one parent and then fertilize it via the other parent (you can even select whether the second parent donates an X or a Y, depending on whether you want a boy or a girl). With comic book genetics technology and people like the Beast running around, that's probably way easier in the 616 universe than it would be in the real world.

Emma, especially in her Hellfire Club days, did sometimes feel like she was giving an over-the-top performance of what men think women are like... Still, that would be just as in-character if she was a biological woman who just didn't think much of men in general (having read far too many minds of men who were not exactly shining bastions of moral fortitude, because of the crowd she used to hang out with).

[Dermie]

Since it's Al Ewing (Loki: Agent of Asgard) writing Avengers 34.1... what is the chance that he will out Hyperion? (if he is indeed Hickman's suppossed "LGBT" Avenger)

I'd say the chances are extremely slim. As far as we know, Ewing is a guest writer doing a single issue (as he also did on AVENGERS ASSEMBLE a few times)--I highly doubt a fill-in writer would be allowed to do something as major as outing one of the regular cast members of someone else's book. It just wouldn't be appropriate. There is also the question of whether or not Ewing would even be aware of who Hickman's "mystery gay" is, given that he isn't part of the regular creative team.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it happen...but I definitely wouldn't get my hopes up for it to happen in a standalone issue by a guest writer.

[Kieran_Frost]

That's why I'm more in favor of Starbrand, who is also powerful.
Of course Hickman's already forshadowed his death. So I should probably stop hoping for him to be the gay character.
And he's a teen character, which translates as cannonfodder in comics.

Hmmmm... would Hickman out the first ever LGBT Avenger then kill him off right away? Surely SOMEONE at some point would explain to him why he doesn't get to do that???

LOL I'd gain a whole new appreciation of Hickman with that kind of subtext, however unintentional, if Hyperion was outed.

Would make that scene hilarious; though if it's Hyperion, I'm sure that was by accident (Hickman's "gay" Secret Warrior was called Stonewall... rather on the nose).

The reason I am opposed to Starbrand, is because Bendis just revealed Morph (Benjamin Deeds) as gay. While their powers are very different, they still have the same "skinny white nerd" look. Meaning no offense at all to their appearance, I would just like to see a different type of gay male represented.
Hyperion has a different look that I don't think many gay male characters in the Marvel Universe have. He is muscular, tall, confident, stoic

THIS EXACTLY. On both accounts. One of my beefs with Hickman's Avengers is the focus on the plot instead of the characters. We're up to issue #35 an yet we've barely seen any of Hyperion's personality.
And I'd be disappointed if it was Starbrand after all, for those same reasons. A lot of Marvel's new queer character fit that mold of geeky gay teen, I'd like to see them try something new. I suppose Hickman proved capable of doing so with Stonewall, even if it was never actually referenced in the comic books.

I agree with both of you. If you think about it, who is the most masculine/beefy/built LGBT male of note? Herc doesn't really count (he's not a main LGBT character, in that sense); so who? All the main LGBT males I can think of are slender or geeky. Hulkling is the most "beefy" one I can think of, and even then he's more trendy buff, with his piercings and emo-ish clothes.

It would be good to have a built-like-a-brick-sh*t-house tough LGBT male.

Yes Kieran, he is easy on the eyes .

Isn't he just.... I never "got" the Superman thing till now. On a completely seperate note, I really like his costume. Good colours and style (way better than the usual Hyperion outfit).

[Kieran_Frost]

Ok, but seriously...

Yeah, I can see Tony banging transgender women. He seems like the kind of guy who's into pretty much anything.

Agreed, Tony would 100% have sex with a transgender woman. The more and more I hear this theory, the more I like it.

Emma, especially in her Hellfire Club days, did sometimes feel like she was giving an over-the-top performance of what men think women are like... Still, that would be just as in-character if she was a biological woman who just didn't think much of men in general (having read far too many minds of men who were not exactly shining bastions of moral fortitude, because of the crowd she used to hang out with).

I does kind of explain A LOT! Obvious when she was first created no-one knew she'd end up being a hero and one of the main X-women; but this does help "smooth out" the contradicting character. Maybe if she only underwent post-op JUST before the Hellfire Club (or even soon after joining); it would account for her characterisation.

I'd say the chances are extremely slim. As far as we know, Ewing is a guest writer doing a single issue (as he also did on AVENGERS ASSEMBLE a few times)--I highly doubt a fill-in writer would be allowed to do something as major as outing one of the regular cast members of someone else's book. It just wouldn't be appropriate. There is also the question of whether or not Ewing would even be aware of who Hickman's "mystery gay" is, given that he isn't part of the regular creative team.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it happen...but I definitely wouldn't get my hopes up for it to happen in a standalone issue by a guest writer.

I think Ewing would know who the LGBT member is (if only to avoid "un-outing them" by accident, if Hickman doesn't tell him who it is). As for "it should be done by Hickman"... meh. I don't agree. a) Hickman's made it clear he's not bothered about outing anyone, so I can't see him caring if someone else does what he doesn't have any interest in doing; it's been 31 issues (if he wanted to do it, he would have) b) Ewing seems (I could be wrong) more aware of minority issues. He does his research (his knowledge of Marvel-lore is IMPRESSIVE!); I'd be surprised if he wasn't aware that the Avengers have never had an LGBT character. c) writers often "share" stories. Busiek created the Thunderbolts, but it was Peter David that got the début. Bendis created Victoria Hand (but someone else did her first appearance).

I suppose, think of it another way, do you think another writer should out Stonewall (since Hickman never did); or do you think Hickman should also be the only one to do that?

[Dermie]

Would make that scene hilarious; though if it's Hyperion, I'm sure that was by accident (Hickman's "gay" Secret Warrior was called Stonewall... rather on the nose).

Surprisingly, that was actually a coincidence according to Hickman. After he revealed Stonewall was the gay Warrior, someone commented on the Stonewall name connection, and Hickman said he was unaware of that. A bizarre thing to happen by accident...

I think Ewing would know who the LGBT member is (if only to avoid "un-outing them" by accident, if Hickman doesn't tell him who it is)

I think Hickman would tell him if it came up--like when Dan Slott told another writer that Max Modell was gay, before he got outed on-panel, because that writer was going to have Max talk about an attractive woman. But I don't think Hickman would make a point of telling him about it unless it came up. After all, WE are giving this "mystery gay" far more thought and importance than Hickman is.

As for "it should be done by Hickman"... meh. I don't agree.

That's NOT what I said, and not what I meant. I said that as a fill-in guest writer doing a standalone issue, it is not Ewing's place to do something like that in someone else's book (unless invited to do so). It has nothing to do with Hickman himself or the fact that he is the one who decided one of these characters is LGBT--its about what writer(s) are currently responsible for them. And at the moment, that is Hickman and Spencer.

Since most of your remaining comments are based on a mis-understanding of my argument, some of it is no longer valid...but let's give it a shot anyway.

Hickman's made it clear he's not bothered about outing anyone, so I can't see him caring if someone else does what he doesn't have any interest in doing; it's been 31 issues (if he wanted to do it, he would have)

I don't see Hickman objecting to it, personally. Although some of us have an understandable frustration with Hickman about this whole "mystery gay" situation, I don't think it comes from any sort of anti-gay place. On the contrary, I think he is trying to have a gay character without him or her becoming the token "gay character", and just write him or her like any other character. That is actually an admirable thought...but the problem is that we're not yet in that ideal world where sexuality doesn't matter. And we won't get there without more VISIBLE gay characters to help along the way. So, ultimately, I think he has a good intention--but is missing the point on the matter of LGBT representation and inclusiveness.

Anyway, like I said, I don't see Hickman having a problem with the character getting outed...unless, of course, the problem was that the readers would then be expecting follow-up on Hyperion being outed as gay, and Hickman himself having no plans to do so (which goes back to the issue of it not being fair for a one-and-done writer to change the status quo on the regular creative team).

Ewing seems (I could be wrong) more aware of minority issues. He does his research (his knowledge of Marvel-lore is IMPRESSIVE!); I'd be surprised if he wasn't aware that the Avengers have never had an LGBT character.

Yes, I'm sure Ewing is aware of that. But I don't think he'd take it upon himself to fix it in a standalone issue on someone else's book. I think he'd be more likely to address it in his OWN ongoing Avengers book with his own cast, where he can develop the subject matter himself, rather than doing it as a hit-and-run.

writers often "share" stories. Busiek created the Thunderbolts, but it was Peter David that got the début.

Yes, its true that writers sometimes share stories. In fact, Hickman is already sharing this Avengers cast and their storyline with Spencer in AVENGERS WORLD. But your example is apples and oranges--the T-Bolts guest appearance was to help launch a new series. This is a standalone issue.

I suppose, think of it another way, do you think another writer should out Stonewall (since Hickman never did); or do you think Hickman should also be the only one to do that?

As noted above, my point was not that Hickman should do it, but rather the character's regular writer (in this case, either Hickman or Spencer). But to answer your question, no I don't think Hickman should be the only one allowed to 'out' Stonewall on-panel...since the character is currently in limbo and not linked to any particular creative team, whoever decides to actually use him has free reign. However, even that isn't quite a fair comparison, since Stonewall has already been 'outed' in an interview, whereas the current "mystery gay" has not.

[Omegastorm]

Well Tony is a straight man and trans women are women, so yeah.

o

[Kieran_Frost]

READING LIST: CELEBRATING LGBT PRIDE IN COMICS
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=53528

Well worth a read. Two Marvel comics are mentioned: Runaways by Brian K. Vaughan and (unsurprisingly)... the amazing, the incredible, the simply brilliant...

Surprisingly, that was actually a coincidence according to Hickman. After he revealed Stonewall was the gay Warrior, someone commented on the Stonewall name connection, and Hickman said he was unaware of that. A bizarre thing to happen by accident...

I'm not sure I buy that; but we'll have to take his word for it (I mean he has NEVER heard of Stonewall... really?).

I think Hickman would tell him if it came up--like when Dan Slott told another writer that Max Modell was gay, before he got outed on-panel, because that writer was going to have Max talk about an attractive woman. But I don't think Hickman would make a point of telling him about it unless it came up. After all, WE are giving this "mystery gay" far more thought and importance than Hickman is.

Ha, ain't that the truth! I know before the series began Hickman talked about being aware of issue of diversity (RE: skin colour and females) and wanted to pro-actively look at that. Which is wonderful, and true to his word he's done a great job with POC and a good job with females (ish-- New Avengers is VERY male heavy). Credit where credit is due, he did a great job.

That's NOT what I said, and not what I meant. I said that as a fill-in guest writer doing a standalone issue, it is not Ewing's place to do something like that in someone else's book (unless invited to do so). It has nothing to do with Hickman himself or the fact that he is the one who decided one of these characters is LGBT--its about what writer(s) are currently responsible for them. And at the moment, that is Hickman and Spencer.

Since most of your remaining comments are based on a mis-understanding of my argument, some of it is no longer valid...but let's give it a shot anyway.

WHOOPS! HUGE apologies; I now see what you meant. I am ashamed...

I don't see Hickman objecting to it, personally. Although some of us have an understandable frustration with Hickman about this whole "mystery gay" situation, I don't think it comes from any sort of anti-gay place. On the contrary, I think he is trying to have a gay character without him or her becoming the token "gay character", and just write him or her like any other character. That is actually an admirable thought...but the problem is that we're not yet in that ideal world where sexuality doesn't matter. And we won't get there without more VISIBLE gay characters to help along the way. So, ultimately, I think he has a good intention--but is missing the point on the matter of LGBT representation and inclusiveness.

I don't see Hickman objecting either, he doesn't seem to be interested in it, so I can't see him objecting if someone else mentioned it (because, as you say, it's not an anti-gay thing, he just doesn't "get it" in terms of representation of LGBT being more than a side-note in interviews. Hickman isn't anti-gay (I see no evidence of that), he's just lacking knowledge in regards to LGBT. Which isn't a crime, nor is it the be-all-and-end-all of comic writing (comics should be GOOD first and foremost). I'd much rather read a good comic (with no LGBT) than a bad comic that was heavy in LGBT representation. That said, I do like it when it's both (i.e. good comic, with good LGBT representation).

Well Tony is a straight man and trans women are women, so yeah.

If it's female and breathing (and willing) Tony would do her! The man is very open-minded in that regard.

[NexusTenebrare]

I agree with both of you. If you think about it, who is the most masculine/beefy/built LGBT male of note? Herc doesn't really count (he's not a main LGBT character, in that sense); so who? All the main LGBT males I can think of are slender or geeky. Hulkling is the most "beefy" one I can think of, and even then he's more trendy buff, with his piercings and emo-ish clothes.

It would be good to have a built-like-a-brick-sh*t-house tough LGBT male.

Okay, I get the point against Starbrand. Like I said, I've changed my mind on that anyway.
But what about Nightmask? No else have any love for Nightmask?

[Kieran_Frost]

Okay, I get the point against Starbrand. Like I said, I've changed my mind on that anyway.
But what about Nightmask? No else have any love for Nightmask?

Visually he's stunning, and the codename is cool (always a good thing). I'm good with the first LGBT Avenger wearing (what to someone) is a "dress-esq" outfit; being artificial isn't how I'd necessary want the first LGBT Avenger (again, sends an odd message) but meh. He looks awesome, I'd be up for that. That said... not wild about the inevitable backlash if it is Nightmask.

[Stormcrow]

Okay, I get the point against Starbrand. Like I said, I've changed my mind on that anyway.
But what about Nightmask? No else have any love for Nightmask?

He has a really cool visual, but if Hyperion is somewhat underdeveloped... Nightmask takes the prize. I can tell you absolutely nothing about him. I'd like to actually get to know him before endorsing him.

[Vic Vega]

Okay, I get the point against Starbrand. Like I said, I've changed my mind on that anyway.
But what about Nightmask? No else have any love for Nightmask?

I don't care enough about Nightmask to hate him.

I just want all the Hickman era Avengers gone on general principle.

I kinda hope Starbrand and Nightmask AREN'T LGBT because that would be a compelling argument to keep them around.

I've got no problem with Moondragon or Living Lightning rejoining the team or Starfox (who in my mind is bi) or Quasar (a real good argument could be made for his being Gay) coming out after rejoining.

[Dermie]

I'm not sure I buy that; but we'll have to take his word for it (I mean he has NEVER heard of Stonewall... really?).

That was my initial reaction too...and then I realized isn't that unlikely. After all, I know most of my general history courses in school didn't cover the history of gay rights, etc.

Ha, ain't that the truth! I know before the series began Hickman talked about being aware of issue of diversity (RE: skin colour and females) and wanted to pro-actively look at that. Which is wonderful, and true to his word he's done a great job with POC and a good job with females (ish-- New Avengers is VERY male heavy). Credit where credit is due, he did a great job.

Very true. He had the most ethnically diverse Avengers roster ever...until Ewing's MIGHTY AVENGERS debuted, and his roster has more active female members than any prior roster. Since the roster is so huge, the women are still outnumbered by the men--but 5 women currently active (and 6, when Abyss was still in the mix) is still impressive.

WHOOPS! HUGE apologies; I now see what you meant. I am ashamed...

No worries. Mistakes happen, and I could have been clearer.

[QYOTE=Vic Vega]I just want all the Hickman era Avengers gone on general principle.

I kinda hope Starbrand and Nightmask AREN'T LGBT because that would be a compelling argument to keep them around. [/QUOTE]

Awww, I kinda like a few of them. I like Smasher--and I'm okay with Starbrand and Hyperion so far. This version of Hyperion seems more likeable than most of the previous Squadron Supreme or Sinister versions I've met before. That said, Nightmask has made no impact on me; Captain Universe is a bit too deus ex machine; and I don't miss Abyss or Ex Nihilo at all and I'm not sure what the point of making them members was in the first place.

I've got no problem with Moondragon or Living Lightning rejoining the team or Starfox (who in my mind is bi) or Quasar (a real good argument could be made for his being Gay) coming out after rejoining.

*lol* Yeah, I am currently re-reading the QUASAR series, and there would definitely be room to out him as gay or bisexual--even his girlfriend wondered if he was gay at one point. As for Starfox, I agree--he probably falls into the same category as Hercules: bisexual, but oriented more towards women than men.

[Kieran_Frost]

I've got no problem with Moondragon or Living Lightning rejoining the team or Starfox (who in my mind is bi) or Quasar (a real good argument could be made for his being Gay) coming out after rejoining.

Agreed, the Avengers line would solve the problem of having never had an LGBT Avenger if they'd just bring back Moondragon, Herc and Living Lightning (all outed AFTER they left) and have their sexuality referenced in the Avengers comic.

QUESTION: would we support or dislike some "meta commentary" from someone like Living Lightning, commenting on the lack of LGBT Avengers, and him saying that is why he's not been back since (he didn't think he'd be welcome now)?

Personally... I don't love the idea. I can see a skilled writer doing it a lot better than my example, but in most cases it will just fall flat and out-rage far more than it pleases.

That was my initial reaction too...and then I realized isn't that unlikely. After all, I know most of my general history courses in school didn't cover the history of gay rights, etc.

He isn't from New York (and quite clearly not an active ally) so I suppose we can give him a pass for not knowing. Still, he's a very intelligent man, I'm amazed the concept hasn't come up at some point.

Very true. He had the most ethnically diverse Avengers roster ever...until Ewing's MIGHTY AVENGERS debuted, and his roster has more active female members than any prior roster. Since the roster is so huge, the women are still outnumbered by the men--but 5 women currently active (and 6, when Abyss was still in the mix) is still impressive.

This is what makes me sad, on some level. Hickman created the most active roster for females... and it's still could be better (not Hickman's fault, it's an issue across the line). Women are so rarely leaders (and when they are there is nearly always a man "in-charge" ultimately -- both Bendis and Ewing's Might Avengers). Wasp and Black Widow used to lead, not anymore.

*lol* Yeah, I am currently re-reading the QUASAR series, and there would definitely be room to out him as gay or bisexual--even his girlfriend wondered if he was gay at one point. As for Starfox, I agree--he probably falls into the same category as Hercules: bisexual, but oriented more towards women than men.

I could buy Quasar as gay or bi too. Let's have a fun picture to contemplate this... hee hee...

[Vic Vega]

If you want/need further fuel for that fire, consider that Living Lighting didn't come out until AFTER he was stationed on a remote space station with Quasar and Starfox.