LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Tiamatty]

If Bobby wasn't gay, Lance was.

On its own, own, no, the relationship stresses don't mean he had to be gay, or bi. Coupled with the rest of his general behavior, including his stress over Cloud's gender shifts and what it meant about him, his jokes about being other men's boyfriend, bringing a beard home to dinner... a few hints from psychics here and there... it does add up to potential, at the very least.

More importantly, I don't think it counters anything. It doesn't require any scenes to be retconned away.

The evidence is all circumstantial at best. Much of it is actually probably speculative. I have no objection to him being gay, and I'm hopeful it gets some really interesting exploration after Secret Wars. I'm happy for the people who are excited about him being gay. I just think it's important to keep in mind that there was absolutely no real previous evidence.

Which is fine. Plenty of real people come out when no one could've predicted they were gay. There's no shortage of men married with kids who realize, "Holy ****, I'm gay." So the lack of evidence isn't a problem, though strictly from a writing stance, Bendis needed to drop hints throughout ANXM that he was leading to it. Fiction is not real life - in fiction, having things happen out of nowhere is going to make readers feel cheated. So Bendis not dropping hints throughout ANXM was bad writing.

But while the lack of evidence isn't a problem, I think it does bear noting that there was no evidence of it. And arguing that there was evidence is, to me, slightly disingenuous. It's starting with an end point and trying to justify the pre-selected conclusion. It'd be like if I decided Iceman was secretly Jewish, and then went searching for things that, taken out of context, could maybe possibly sorta prove that he's Jewish.

I'm fine with him being gay. But let's not all pretend that there was real evidence of it. And let's certainly not all pretend that his romantic troubles are because of repressed orientation when he's a young neurotic underachiever with poor self-confidence. If he suddenly starts having great, successful relationships now, then that is something I'll have a problem with. A young neurotic underachiever with poor self-confidence is going to have romantic problems no matter what his orientation.

[Kieran_Frost]

Gotta love Wiccan and Hulkling. Its nice to see a happy couple in comics.

Agreed. They are a dying species at Marvel.

I really recommend you Runaways! The first and second volumes by Brian K. Vaughan, after that it goes downhill :S

To be fair, Whedon's brief run was awesome too, it's only the delays that left a bitter taste in people's mouths. The art's beautiful too.

Which is arguably a greater indication of confidence issues than anything to do with his sexuality. Bobby doesn't have failed romantic relationships because he's gay - plenty of gay people have actually had very successful long-term heterosexual relationships, after all - Bobby has failed romantic relationships because he's got a lot of issues he needs to work through.

While a history of failed relationships doesn't make you gay, it doesn't make you NOT gay either. Can someone who is deeply closeted have failed relationships with women, HELL YES! It's absurd to pretend (now he's been outed) it can't be used as evidence. I 100% side with t hedge coke; there is plenty of thing can be used as evidence to justify Iceman being outed. Frankly, I can't think of a single character who has more evidence in Marvel. Several characters in Marvel canon have questioned his sexuality. Even his former girlfriend said they were never physical and stuff with Bobby is always complicated no matter who he is with. His history with his father, his situation with Cloud... none of this means if this happens to someone they MUST be gay BUT... all of these things are certainly known tropes (for want of a better word) for deeply closeted characters and to act like it came out of the blue and that all those things mean he CAN'T be gay? Come on, you're better than that.

Considering all the LGBT developments in the comics world, Ive been silence but Ive been peeking around reading opinions. Because honestly I feel like Im against the majority. Marvel not having LGBT ongoing or solo is actually fine with me considering The Wicked & The Divine, Midnighter, and multiple web comics (Like The Pride) are out there. If Marvel doesnt want to do it, thats fine there are other options for me.

I'm fine with Marvel never making another Asian solo series or really pushing any Asian characters again, they appear plenty in manga. COME ON! How do you not see how silly that logic is???

Iceman situation..... I find it very problematic, for a number of reasons, more so it helps in ignoring the LGBT characters out there already. Especially in the X World, Northstar, Karma, Anole, Rictor, Shatterstar should have way more focus instead of, what I feel was jumping thru hoops to make teen Bobby work. Yet Uncanny 600 has come out yet, so who knows how this will turn out.

Maybe you're forgetting how everyone in this thread felt about Marvel's LGBT situation in 2014 compared to 2013? Marvel were doing jusssssssst fine ignoring the LGBT characters; Iceman being outed can't change that. Before Iceman was outed, Wiccan/Hulkling were cameo roles, Rictor/Shatterstar utterly absent, Living Lighting eternally MIA, Herc still not on any on-going. Marvel ignore LGBT characters with or without Iceman, it's absurd to even bring that up as a fear/concern.

[t hedge coke]

The evidence is all circumstantial at best. Much of it is actually probably speculative.

Agreed. But, again, it's leading. It invites speculation.

And, I still don't see the hurdles that would prevent it from being true.

[Tiamatty]

Agreed. But, again, it's leading. It invites speculation.

And, I still don't see the hurdles that would prevent it from being true.

No hurdles. I have no objection to Iceman being gay, aside from Bendis not adequately foreshadowing it earlier in the series. I'm just saying that the claims of there being any real prior evidence of it are just people seeing what they want to see, not seeing what's actually there.

[NexusTenebrare]

No hurdles. I have no objection to Iceman being gay, aside from Bendis not adequately foreshadowing it earlier in the series. I'm just saying that the claims of there being any real prior evidence of it are just people seeing what they want to see, not seeing what's actually there.

In your opinion maybe.
A lot of people have been getting the vibe from Bobby for ages.
Maybe it wasn't what the writers intended, but it's the vibe their writing created nonetheless.

[R.E.B]

I'm fine with Marvel never making another Asian solo series or really pushing any Asian characters again, they appear plenty in manga. COME ON! How do you not see how silly that logic is???

Actually... I dont think its silly, why would I beg and plead for someone to give me what I want, when I can get it some where else? Marvel does what it thinks it best for itself. If Young Avengers wasnt the start of something, its not going to happen anytime soon I feel.

Maybe you're forgetting how everyone in this thread felt about Marvel's LGBT situation in 2014 compared to 2013? Marvel were doing jusssssssst fine ignoring the LGBT characters; Iceman being outed can't change that. Before Iceman was outed, Wiccan/Hulkling were cameo roles, Rictor/Shatterstar utterly absent, Living Lighting eternally MIA, Herc still not on any on-going. Marvel ignore LGBT characters with or without Iceman, it's absurd to even bring that up as a fear/concern.

No, Im not forgetting and I dont think its absurd to feel like teen Drake is going to get much more focus now. There's no way to avoid it, it was a big media thing. However is there going to be complete satifaction in how this is going to work considering Jean and Bobby stated and confirmed that Present Bobby is straight? Yes there has been innuendo, inside jokes, and the Emma Frost scene. Young Bobby is Gay but BMB wrote that Present Bobby is heterosexual. Many Uncanny 600 will wrap this in a bow, but I strongly doubt it.

And when it comes to ignoring others, havent you said yourself how Bobby is the A-Lister needed to be gay? So if thats the case why would he get more focus? What Im saying is: you have plenty of established characters that are apart of the community that could grow and flourish with the right staff, isnt that what happen with the Young Avengers? Didnt James Tynion VI showed us this with the Anole issue of Amazing X-Men. This expresses my issue with X-Men characters post Kitty/Rogue/Rachel not being able to be promoted to the main teams in a way, there's no room to grow so you have all of these characters around bouncing from satellite team to satellite team, without making it to the main groups. You could have Karma, Rictor and Shatterstar on Uncanny and have excellent representation. You cant be a popular character if you arent given the chance, So yes teen Drake being gay... okay, good score one for us, but after claiming him... now what?

[R.E.B]

Which is arguably a greater indication of confidence issues than anything to do with his sexuality. Bobby doesn't have failed romantic relationships because he's gay - plenty of gay people have actually had very successful long-term heterosexual relationships, after all - Bobby has failed romantic relationships because he's got a lot of issues he needs to work through. Those issues would sabotage any same-sex relationships he gets into, as well.

That's what R.E.B. is talking about. None of Iceman's romantic problems are anything that tons of other people have had, too, regardless of sexual orientation. An openly gay person is just as likely to have the exact same problems, and there's countless straight people who've had those problems without it being them repressing their real sexuality.

I'm one of the people who doesn't mind Iceman being gay. I'm willing to wait and see how it goes. But the idea that his failed relationships are indicative of anything other than him not being emotionally capable of sustaining a healthy romantic relationship, the idea that his romantic problems are because he's gay - it's ridiculous.

I guess that is what Im trying to say, but I guess it how one looks at it.

[legion_quest]

Gillen's YA run is getting the hate parade of comments again, in a thread about a poll of Runaways vs YA. http://community.comicbookresources....rs-quot-Debate!

[Kieran_Frost]

Gillen's YA run is getting the hate parade of comments again, in a thread about a poll of Runaways vs YA. http://community.comicbookresources....rs-quot-Debate!

Let the haterz hate; ultimately they lose. The series was one of the most critically acclaimed Marvel comics of 2013, won the GLAAD award and will ultimately be remembered as incredible. They can't stop an avalanche as it races down the hill. They can try to stop the seasons, gurrrrrl, but you know they never will.

Actually... I dont think its silly, why would I beg and plead for someone to give me what I want, when I can get it some where else? Marvel does what it thinks it best for itself.

Oh don't be silly; if I made a thread saying "Should Marvel put little effort into promoting it's Asian characters because comic readers could just read Manga if they want Asian characters" would you vote "YES" in the poll? I kid you not, I'd make such a thread if you promised to be the main champion of such an arguement.

No, Im not forgetting and I dont think its absurd to feel like teen Drake is going to get much more focus now. There's no way to avoid it, it was a big media thing. However is there going to be complete satifaction in how this is going to work considering Jean and Bobby stated and confirmed that Present Bobby is straight? Yes there has been innuendo, inside jokes, and the Emma Frost scene. Young Bobby is Gay but BMB wrote that Present Bobby is heterosexual. Many Uncanny 600 will wrap this in a bow, but I strongly doubt it.

You are misinterpreting that scene wrong. 05 Bobby says how is he gay is adult Bobby isn't and Jean says she doesn't know and he needs to ask him. Neither "confirmed" he was straight, merely said he calls himself straight. I'd be shocked if Uncanny X-men #600 didn't out older Bobby. In fact 05 Bobby specifically explains why adult Bobby could be "straight" by being in extreme denial. 05 Bobby called it "putting it away."

And when it comes to ignoring others, havent you said yourself how Bobby is the A-Lister needed to be gay? So if thats the case why would he get more focus? What Im saying is: you have plenty of established characters that are apart of the community that could grow and flourish with the right staff, isnt that what happen with the Young Avengers? Didnt James Tynion VI showed us this with the Anole issue of Amazing X-Men. This expresses my issue with X-Men characters post Kitty/Rogue/Rachel not being able to be promoted to the main teams in a way, there's no room to grow so you have all of these characters around bouncing from satellite team to satellite team, without making it to the main groups. You could have Karma, Rictor and Shatterstar on Uncanny and have excellent representation.

Bobby is now the only LGBT A-lister (maybe Mystique and Loki, thanks to the film). And so yes he is now going to get a lot of attention, but that doesn't put the blame of Marvel ignoring other LGBT characters on him. They were doing that long before they outed Iceman. When was Living Lightning last in a comic again???

You cant be a popular character if you arent given the chance, So yes teen Drake being gay... okay, good score one for us, but after claiming him... now what?

Now give us the first ever gay on-going starring Iceman; obviously.

No hurdles. I have no objection to Iceman being gay, aside from Bendis not adequately foreshadowing it earlier in the series. I'm just saying that the claims of there being any real prior evidence of it are just people seeing what they want to see, not seeing what's actually there.

In your opinion...

[R.E.B]

Oh don't be silly; if I made a thread saying "Should Marvel put little effort into promoting it's Asian characters because comic readers could just read Manga if they want Asian characters" would you vote "YES" in the poll? I kid you not, I'd make such a thread if you promised to be the main champion of such an arguement.

You know... usually we agree on most things and I did say that my opinion was opposite of the majority... Its not silly to have a dissenting opinion. Overall do we all want Marvel to publish an LGBT ongoing, of course but, if the hunger is known and its being ignored or you get scraps why go back to that? Especially when DC just gave us Midnighter Filet Mignon. Im a fan of Marvel but its not the only game in town.

You are misinterpreting that scene wrong. 05 Bobby says how is he gay is adult Bobby isn't and Jean says she doesn't know and he needs to ask him. Neither "confirmed" he was straight, merely said he calls himself straight. I'd be shocked if Uncanny X-men #600 didn't out older Bobby. In fact 05 Bobby specifically explains why adult Bobby could be "straight" by being in extreme denial. 05 Bobby called it "putting it away."

Okay maybe, my perspective skews my point but you dont have ANY questions about this character arc?

Bobby is now the only LGBT A-lister (maybe Mystique and Loki, thanks to the film). And so yes he is now going to get a lot of attention, but that doesn't put the blame of Marvel ignoring other LGBT characters on him. They were doing that long before they outed Iceman. When was Living Lightning last in a comic again???


Now give us the first ever gay on-going starring Iceman; obviously.

Maybe its me being cynical but Im seeing this as excuse to not give anyone else who are LGBT characters forward momentum. Hopefully Im wrong, but....

As for Iceman ongoing... Sure Id love to read it but a truly great staff would be needed to make that even close to reality.
Scott, Ororo, Magnus, & Jean all have hooks to the character arcs hopefully someone can flesh out Bobby.

[America / Bucky / Russia]

True, but I think Iceman would fair better than an obscure character (male or female). So Marvel really have no excuse to not give him a solo series, if they give one to Squirrel Girl.

Well, he got 4 issues in the 80s. Might track down the hardcover at some point. So Marvel could at least put out 5 issues, although they don't seem to be doing too many limited series these days. An ongoing might be possible after Uncanny #600. Unfortunately other periphery X-Men characters haven't lasted long either - Storm at 11 issues; Gambit at 17. Not even being a strong female POC with an amazing mohawk or being one of the best characters from the 90s (and having a cute butt) could save them.

Considering all the LGBT developments in the comics world, Ive been silence but Ive been peeking around reading opinions. Because honestly I feel like Im against the majority. Marvel not having LGBT ongoing or solo is actually fine with me considering The Wicked & The Divine, Midnighter, and multiple web comics (Like The Pride) are out there. If Marvel doesnt want to do it, thats fine there are other options for me.

I've read quite a few LGBT webcomics over the past year, unfortunately I find them quite hard to follow. The Pride is different as it's released not only as a webcomic but also in an issue by issue form. But when it's down to a page a week, sure it's convenient in putting aside time, but it makes tracking the plotline itself difficult without rereading the last few pages. I'd say the most successful webcomics are one which rely less heavily on a narrative, stuff like the wonderful Assigned Male which focuses more on the message (although still having an easy to follow narrative progression behind it. More in the vain of newspaper strips really. Plus some of the stuff I follow suffers from delays because the artist is sick or suffering personal issues, or just devolves into "let's have a 10 page sex scene" which takes 2 months to complete.

I'm fine with Marvel never making another Asian solo series or really pushing any Asian characters again, they appear plenty in manga. COME ON! How do you not see how silly that logic is???

Well, Bleeding Cool posted a rumour suggesting Amadeus Cho will be the new Hulk in an ongoing.

Gillen's YA run is getting the hate parade of comments again, in a thread about a poll of Runaways vs YA. http://community.comicbookresources....rs-quot-Debate!

I think what's so divisive is that firstly there's a greater benefit of time to Runaways (12 years later, somehow), and also the fact Heinberg's YA is more conventional superhero storytelling. Gillen's run is more a 15 issue epic based around character drama over superhero fights, and with more youthful artwork (Cheung is a bit more serious, quite prolific as he's done lots of different covers and I believe some Avengers issues too).

[Tiamatty]

Maybe its me being cynical but Im seeing this as excuse to not give anyone else who are LGBT characters forward momentum. Hopefully Im wrong, but....

Marvel has never needed an excuse not to use LGBT characters. Letting them languish in limbo is the default.

[Freako]

I really recommend you Runaways! The first and second volumes by Brian K. Vaughan, after that it goes downhill :S

Thank you. I'll definitely check it out on Amazon as I've been looking for good TPB suggestions lately.

As far as women and being sexy, although I'm gay, or maybe partly because of it, I've loved individualistic thinking women who can flirt but also have a mind, wit, and sense of strength since I was young. I've had a few women like that who were important in my life from an early age. The clothing and expressions of sexuality aren't the issue for me. It's more about respect of intelligence and accomplishment and trying to have a good attitude about life. Of the main two, one was from the 1930's and the other my age-teen in 80's. I had a great deal of respect for them. They were great friends and great people.

I also have to acknowledge straight men who were my allies at that time. They're not all conformist baboons. No one brought that up here, but it's rarely said.

[whiterabbit]

I have a question regarding gay character usage in the media: If they release a movie or tv show that uses a particular character that IS gay in the comics, but it's never stated or they're changed to straight, is it offensive? We have characters changing skin color when used in different media, so does that same logic apply here?

[t hedge coke]

I have a question regarding gay character usage in the media: If they release a movie or tv show that uses a particular character that IS gay in the comics, but it's never stated or they're changed to straight, is it offensive? We have characters changing skin color when used in different media, so does that same logic apply here?

I think it would beg a justification.