LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Andru]

Dan Slott's Mighty Avengers. During Dark Reign, I think.

Interesting, thanks! I hate to go off-topic, but why was Loki impersonating Wanda?

[Fokken]

Interesting, thanks! I hate to go off-topic, but why was Loki impersonating Wanda?

Glamor and Glitter?
Fashion and Fame?

[Andru]

Glamor and Glitter?
Fashion and Fame?

Well duh I just thought there might be a little more behind it...

[Fokken]

Well duh I just thought there might be a little more behind it...

His intent was to mess with Osborn through the Mighty Avengers, if I recall correctly.

[Andru]

His intent was to mess with Osborn through the Mighty Avengers, if I recall correctly.

Thanks! I can't tell who broke off the kiss from just the one panel...Did Loki because he wasn't interested in Clint. Or Clint because he realized it really wasn't Wanda? I just cant imagine anyone refusing Clint

[Spider-Chan]

It was both I think. That was unexpected for Loki and Clint was just checking. Clint later says that Loki had bad breath.

[Kieran_Frost]

I always thought it was funny the way Loki didn't want Clint kissing him, but was clearly shagging Dr Doom and Namor during this period while using Sif's body.

Poor Sif... did she ever truly confront Loki over it?

I love you.

When did this happen? I remember him hooking up with a Wanda doom-but, but I had no idea Loki impersonated Wanda before.

Dan Slott's Mighty Avengers. During Dark Reign, I think.

It was indeed. Dan Slott's Mighty Avengers was epic old school (like Ewing's current run). "Wanda" gathers a Hank Pym lead team to be the 'true' Avengers over Osborne's 'dark' Avengers. BUT we later learn it's NOT Wanda but Loki; doing all this to mess with Osborne/push him closer to breaking point. It's an awesome run AND Wiccan manages to break Loki's spells and call him forth/start to undo his disguise (and this is STRONG magic oldschool Loki). So a good showing for the Demiurge. Cassie Lang is (as always) an unlikeable mess, but Loki constantly insults her, so it's fun.

Interesting, thanks! I hate to go off-topic, but why was Loki impersonating Wanda?

Glamor and Glitter?
Fashion and Fame?

Thanks! I can't tell who broke off the kiss from just the one panel...Did Loki because he wasn't interested in Clint. Or Clint because he realized it really wasn't Wanda? I just cant imagine anyone refusing Clint

It was both I think. That was unexpected for Loki and Clint was just checking. Clint later says that Loki had bad breath.

Also this Loki isn't the nice Loki we've had since Journey into Mystery; I think current HiddlestonLoki wouldn't mind tongue dancing with Clint

[Dermie]

You are a fount of knowledge! Either way though, it's a side of Mystique we never see in her. When was the last time she acknowledged that side of her sexuality???

True, it is not something that she brings up much. But I think that is more a matter of who she is these days, and what her agenda is. In recent years, sex has been more of a manipulation tool than anything else for Mystique--she hasn't really been in the "let your guard down and establish real emotional connections" frame of mind (which is the type of relationship she had with Irene).

And if she is mainly using sex to manipulate or control, then it makes sense that we are mostly seeing her with men nowadays. For one thing, there are more heterosexual men than lesbian/bisexual women established in her usual circle of allies and enemies and rivals. And (stereotype though it may be) men tend to be more vulnerable to sexual manipulation than women. So she a lot less likely to use her sex-as-a-weapon tricks on a woman than she is on a man...and these days that tends to be the main expression of her sexuality.

[Kieran_Frost]

True, it is not something that she brings up much. But I think that is more a matter of who she is these days, and what her agenda is. In recent years, sex has been more of a manipulation tool than anything else for Mystique--she hasn't really been in the "let your guard down and establish real emotional connections" frame of mind (which is the type of relationship she had with Irene).

But again having her reference her sexuality doesn't need to be out of love, or in a relationship. It's sadly just not part of who she is in most writers eyes (which is why her LGBT status -- or lack there of -- in the films doesn't bother me). If comics can't be bothered to mention it, why should a separate universe's films?

And if she is mainly using sex to manipulate or control, then it makes sense that we are mostly seeing her with men nowadays. For one thing, there are more heterosexual men than lesbian/bisexual women established in her usual circle of allies and enemies and rivals. And (stereotype though it may be) men tend to be more vulnerable to sexual manipulation than women. So she a lot less likely to use her sex-as-a-weapon tricks on a woman than she is on a man...and these days that tends to be the main expression of her sexuality.

While yes men are more vulnerable, it's not like women are immune. She is a shapeshifter after all, it's not like she can only go for bisexual women or lesbian.

[Dermie]

But again having her reference her sexuality doesn't need to be out of love, or in a relationship.

It doesn't need to be, no. But the way Mystique usually references her sexuality (in general, not being bi specifically) is in the use of it. Its just how she is (at least in recent times).

It's sadly just not part of who she is in most writers eyes

I don't know that I agree with that. I'd argue that for most writers who know Mystique and know her history, they are well aware of her being bisexual--her relationship with Destiny was a very big part of Mystique's history for a long time. In fact some of them may well feel that it has already been so well-established, through the many years of her on-panel relationship with Destiny, that there is no need for them to reference it unless/until they have a use for it in-story.

The movie writers, on the other hand, may not be aware of Mystique's bisexual history...or may not be interested in making it a part of that version of the character. But in terms of the comics writers, I don't think its fair to assume that a lack of reference to her sexuality means that they don't remember it.

While yes men are more vulnerable, it's not like women are immune. She is a shapeshifter after all, it's not like she can only go for bisexual women or lesbian.

A fair point. But I never said she couldn't use those tactics on a woman...just that she is more likely to on a man.

I do hope that sooner or later a writer does give Mystique a female love interest again though...either as a way of pulling her back from the "psycho terrorist" mode she's fallen into in recent years, or maybe pair her up with an equally bad lady and give her a worthy partner in crime.

[Tiamatty]

True, it is not something that she brings up much. But I think that is more a matter of who she is these days, and what her agenda is. In recent years, sex has been more of a manipulation tool than anything else for Mystique--she hasn't really been in the "let your guard down and establish real emotional connections" frame of mind (which is the type of relationship she had with Irene).

And if she is mainly using sex to manipulate or control, then it makes sense that we are mostly seeing her with men nowadays. For one thing, there are more heterosexual men than lesbian/bisexual women established in her usual circle of allies and enemies and rivals. And (stereotype though it may be) men tend to be more vulnerable to sexual manipulation than women. So she a lot less likely to use her sex-as-a-weapon tricks on a woman than she is on a man...and these days that tends to be the main expression of her sexuality.

Mystique does have sex for pleasure, too, though. She uses it to manipulate people, but she also likes to get laid now and then. And when you look at the past 25 years, since Destiny's died: She had a serious relationship with Forge, she's slept with Wolverine on multiple occasions (several of them purely for fun), we've learned she got knocked up by Azazel, she's had a few relationships with Sabretooth, she tried to seduce Gambit, she had a thing with Iceman, she apparently married Xavier, and we've seen her have random hook-ups with a ton of guys. Some of these were to promote an agenda, but a lot weren't. There were quite a few that she did just to get off.

So we have a history of her being exclusively interested in men. She's had probably a few dozen on-panel lovers, and only one has ever been a woman (and even that was subtext). She'd held up as one of the most prominent LGBT characters in comics, yet for all intent and purposes, she's basically "straight with an exception."

So I think two things need to happen. First, actually show that she's bisexual. Have her getting out of bed with another woman. Two, do a miniseries about Mystique and Destiny's early relationship. I really, really think that would be an awesome story. It's material just waiting to be mined. It's ground that's never really been covered - we saw a bit of them in WW2 in a Kitty/Rachel mini, but they'd already been together for a while by that point. So a mini that shows how they met and fell in love is almost begging to be done.

[Dermie]

Mystique does have sex for pleasure, too, though. She uses it to manipulate people, but she also likes to get laid now and then. And when you look at the past 25 years, since Destiny's died: She had a serious relationship with Forge, she's slept with Wolverine on multiple occasions (several of them purely for fun), we've learned she got knocked up by Azazel, she's had a few relationships with Sabretooth, she tried to seduce Gambit, she had a thing with Iceman, she apparently married Xavier, and we've seen her have random hook-ups with a ton of guys. Some of these were to promote an agenda, but a lot weren't. There were quite a few that she did just to get off.

Absolutely. My point was that the "sex as a weapon" thing is how she tends to be portrayed currently (the Forge and Azazel examples are much further back than what I am referring to). I know that historically she has a history of sex for pleasure. But over the last few years, it seems to be much more agenda based. Even some of the ones you listed were agenda based (she developed feelings for Iceman, but her relationship with him was LITERALLY sex as a weapon since she used the physical contact to disable his powers; her attempt to seduce Gambit was a bizarre attempt to fix the Gambit/Rogue relationship, etc).

So I think two things need to happen. First, actually show that she's bisexual. Have her getting out of bed with another woman.

Agreed. It is definitely an aspect of her character that should be shown again. I'm a little surprised that they haven't shown it a bit more, just given the girl-on-girl-is-hot titillation factor for a large chunk of the target audience.

Two, do a miniseries about Mystique and Destiny's early relationship. I really, really think that would be an awesome story. It's material just waiting to be mined. It's ground that's never really been covered - we saw a bit of them in WW2 in a Kitty/Rachel mini, but they'd already been together for a while by that point. So a mini that shows how they met and fell in love is almost begging to be done.

That would be cool! I'm not sure if there is enough present-day interest in Destiny from the readers for it to be justified from a money-making perspective by Marvel...but you're right that it would definitely be an interesting read!

[Tiamatty]

That would be cool! I'm not sure if there is enough present-day interest in Destiny from the readers for it to be justified from a money-making perspective by Marvel...but you're right that it would definitely be an interesting read!

Maybe there's not much interest in Destiny, but there's always interest in Mystique. I think what would hurt sales most would be the fact that it would be a miniseries. Minis always seem to have a bit more of a struggle than ongoings.

I'm trying to decide on a good creative team. I'm inclined to go with Jen Van Meter and Emma Rios, but it's only because I want them both getting more work. Still, they would do a fantastic job. Van Meter's Hopeless-Savages (especially Vol. 2) did a great job with romance, and it would ultimately be a romance story. And I feel like Rios would make Mystique's shapeshifting look really interesting. Rios is an absolute master at motion, so the shapeshifting would look stunning. Plus, her art is very expressive, and gets across tone ridiculously well. Especially any kind of tension.

So, yeah. Van Meter and Rios would be my first choice for creative team. Which should be a surprise to no one, really.

[Fokken]

Are any of us bisexual? The reason I ask is -- is it common practice for bisexual individuals to vocalize their bisexuality in the manner some seem to wish Mystique would? Perhaps it takes a bisexual mind to understand why or why not Mystique might not address her interest in women as often as she does. I mean, my husband is friends with a couple, and they're both bisexual, but its never actaully brought up - and before they were a couple, very few people even knew they were bisexual.

Perhaps, unique to her, she views the sexes with two very different vantage points -- one more romanticized than the other? For all we know, the loss of Destiny may have impacted her so dramatically that she can't conceive being with another woman.
I mean, as many have stated (and I agree with) Mystique uses sexuality and sex as a weapon -- and historically speaking, men prove themselves very susceptible to such manipulations, thereby increasing the likelihood of implementing such manipulations. Its just easier for her.

[Kieran_Frost]

Are any of us bisexual? The reason I ask is -- is it common practice for bisexual individuals to vocalize their bisexuality in the manner some seem to wish Mystique would? Perhaps it takes a bisexual mind to understand why or why not Mystique might not address her interest in women as often as she does. I mean, my husband is friends with a couple, and they're both bisexual, but its never actaully brought up - and before they were a couple, very few people even knew they were bisexual.

But is that couple in question sexually overt about their hetrosexuality? As for who is bisexual, I know I'm not. To my knowledge Greg, Omegastorm and Imraith are bisexual. And I agree, we need their views on this, truthfully

Perhaps, unique to her, she views the sexes with two very different vantage points -- one more romanticized than the other? For all we know, the loss of Destiny may have impacted her so dramatically that she can't conceive being with another woman.
I mean, as many have stated (and I agree with) Mystique uses sexuality and sex as a weapon -- and historically speaking, men prove themselves very susceptible to such manipulations, thereby increasing the likelihood of implementing such manipulations. Its just easier for her.

And that is the crux of the matter. I've seen (and spouted) that same theory before; and I think it works BUT no writer's ever really explored it, so it's fan fiction right now. I don't think anyone is saying Mystique needs to "lez it up, ASAP" but explore what Destiny actually meant and does she intentionally not go for women (regardless of her attraction) because Destiny is the only women for her. It's not been said. It's ignored. And let's be fair, Mystique has over 1,000 issues under her belt (I assume far more, even); it's not like we're complaining over it not being mentioned in her 5 issues of comics.