LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Anduinel]

If Nurse Annie was a Mary Sue, why did almost no one like her and why was she constantly mistaken or wrong, or embarrassing herself? Mary Sue's, generally, aren't made fun of and outcast, or built primarily out of flaws that everyone else can constantly highlight. She was mutantphobic, she built a romance in her imagination, she was awkward when nervous, she shipped without sensibility, and she babbled embarrassingly.

Who in Austen's regular cast actually disliked Annie, though? She became a confidant to Husk and Northstar pretty much off the bat, dated Iceman, became the love-interest of Havok (Austen's favorite character), had Juggernaut as her kid's baby-sitter, and I don't recall Angel or Nightcrawler having much to say about her one way or the other despite her fear of mutants. The only one I really recall disliking her was Polaris, and that was because Austen made her as unsympathetic as possible in an effort to make Annie look like a better choice for Havok. Her flaws seemed like they were supposed to make her relatable/endearing in the same vein as Bella Swan, and were executed about as well. Even her having the hots for a comatose man was revealed to be because her 6-year-old had Annie and Havok psychically dating while Havok was in his coma, taking Annie off the hook for being a creeper. (Or that seemed to be the intention anyway. I think the fact that she was happy about that was even worse than the air-sex moment for absolute squick.) Not to mention she was based on Austen's wife. I'd say she definitely has more than a whiff of writer's pet about her.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

A bunch of comments from that thread I posted about earlier were deleted, including mine. Which is strange 'cause all I did was point out that it's not like that petition is going to be successful so homophobic people shouldn't bother getting upset anyway.

[Tiamatty]

I don't think the petition is exploiting the shooting like the straight guys commenting on it claimed, it was just started by one guy trying to honour his friend.

I agree that it's not exploiting the tragedy. Frankly, given a bunch of LGBT and Latinx people got shot, I'm inclined to think that any push for greater LGBT and Latinx representation isn't exploiting the tragedy. But yeah, this isn't exploitation.

[dragonmp93]

I agree that it's not exploiting the tragedy. Frankly, given a bunch of LGBT and Latinx people got shot, I'm inclined to think that any push for greater LGBT and Latinx representation isn't exploiting the tragedy. But yeah, this isn't exploitation.

Yeah, i dont think that it's exploiting either; if the petition was about banning guns on Star Wars, or making the movies less violent, that it would be exploiting.

[Magnito]

A couple of weeks ago, when we were sharing selfies, I shared one that was a couple years old because it was the most recent photo I had (because I hardly ever take selfies). Anyways, the boyfriend and I recently went on vacation to Canberra and I took a pic of myself with the Aussie parliament building. Thought I'd share it because it's more accurate as to what I look like now (because it was taken yesterday)

IMG_20160628_120512.jpg

Squinting due to sun in my eyes.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

A couple of weeks ago, when we were sharing selfies, I shared one that was a couple years old because it was the most recent photo I had (because I hardly ever take selfies). Anyways, the boyfriend and I recently went on vacation to Canberra and I took a pic of myself with the Aussie parliament building. Thought I'd share it because it's more accurate as to what I look like now (because it was taken yesterday)

IMG_20160628_120512.jpg

Squinting due to sun in my eyes.

You look good, man.

[Silvermoth]

Everyone is so hot in this thread.

Here's a heads-up, a friend of one of the victims of the Orlando shooting started a petition asking Lucasfilm to create an openly gay Star Wars character based on his friend. The comments section on here for this article went exactly as you would expect.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...ovie-character

That was such a heartbreaking story. I follow Justin yuel on Twitter and he was agonising before he knew what happened to Drew and then it just got worse when he found out. I hope Disney at least makes a comment about this. And if what they've said is true about wanting to include LGBT people why not name him after drew?

[Mah VM]

The best thing Marvel could do at this point in the Star Wars would be not making Poe straight. His sexuality has never been adressed in any way so him mentioning an ex-boyfriend or having a male love interest wouldn't contradict anything and would instantly stablish a new popular character, who has a solo (that I'm loving) and is in the movies, as one of us. Also not killing off Sana and/or Dr. Aphra in Star Wars would be nice. I care way more about the comics than the movies at this point though I understand the latter brings more visibility.

I've seen people talking about Luke Skywalker possibly being LGBT but even though there's nothing to contradict that in canon, if I had to choose one of the long stablished ones to be revealed as LGBT it would be Princess Leia. Her scenes with Sana read as UST to me. I'd give anything to read a book focused on the adventures of those two in space. Marvel owe us some Space Lesbians.

[gifted]

JJ Abrams more or less confirmed a while back that this new trilogy will include gay characters. Assuming they'd have all three movies planned long ago, I'm sure they have already written in gay characters. So, even if this petition goes through, I don't think it would be as the first gay character exactly... especially since I'm pretty sure Poe will be revealed as gay. While I would love Poe Dameron to be gay, I'm in the minority that does not ship him and Finn.

[NexusTenebrare]

JJ Abrams more or less confirmed a while back that this new trilogy will include gay characters. Assuming they'd have all three movies planned long ago, I'm sure they have already written in gay characters. So, even if this petition goes through, I don't think it would be as the first gay character exactly... especially since I'm pretty sure Poe will be revealed as gay. While I would love Poe Dameron to be gay, I'm in the minority that does not ship him and Finn.

I just fear it'll be another last minute reveal where you'll have the good guys celebrating at the very last scenes of the last movie of the trilogy and then you see a character celebrating by kissing a character of the same sex.
If JJ is going to include gay characters, I want it in the next movie and preferably early on in the movie.

As for Poe and Finn. I like the idea of them together and it's cute how Poe essentially named him, but I think it was pretty obvious in TFA that Finn has a thing for Rey. I think that Poe/Finn would very much be a one-sided thing in canon.

[Mah VM]

JJ Abrams more or less confirmed a while back that this new trilogy will include gay characters. Assuming they'd have all three movies planned long ago, I'm sure they have already written in gay characters. So, even if this petition goes through, I don't think it would be as the first gay character exactly... especially since I'm pretty sure Poe will be revealed as gay. While I would love Poe Dameron to be gay, I'm in the minority that does not ship him and Finn.

I think him and Finn would be great together and they had a lot of chemistry but I'm not rooting for them both to become a couple because I know that'd never happen. One main gay character will already cause a debacle, there's no way they'd out the two of them. Poe is our best bet and frankly the shocking thing at this point would be for him to be revealed to be straight. I don't mind if it takes a long time for him to have a male love interest as long as it's stablished that he's interested in men, whether exclusively or as well as women. At this point I'm more concerned about him mentioning an ex-girlfriend or commenting on a female character being attractive (which would be quickly taken by many as a "proof" that he's straight even though it wouldn't necessarily be the case) than rooting for him to mention an ex-boyfriend or comment on a male character being attractive. That's why he's the best opportunity: it's not just about revealing him as LGBT anymore since many people already see him that way but simply not making him straight for no reason other than to prove us wrong or spite us.

[gifted]

We need optimism!

[t hedge coke]

Who in Austen's regular cast actually disliked Annie, though?

Husk disliked her at first. Until she became less bigoted, she couldn't really give her the time of day.

Iceman disliked her, then hit on her. Polaris, natch. Scott disliked her. Many of the characters were, at bare minimum, very standoffish with her.

And she embarrassed herself or reacted poorly regularly. Panic attack over Xavier's psychic powers. Asking Husk if her powers were dangerous to her son. "I would have gladly bathed you naked." The pity invite to Lorna's party, where she went and sat by herself.

Mary Sues doesn't go sit by themselves because hardly anyone wants to talk with them or sit and watch strippers with them. Mary Sues, generally, aren't bigots who embarrass themselves on a daily basis, even though they try hard, but have no/two whole friends.

[Tiamatty]

Husk disliked her at first. Until she became less bigoted, she couldn't really give her the time of day.

Iceman disliked her, then hit on her. Polaris, natch. Scott disliked her. Many of the characters were, at bare minimum, very standoffish with her.

And she embarrassed herself or reacted poorly regularly. Panic attack over Xavier's psychic powers. Asking Husk if her powers were dangerous to her son. "I would have gladly bathed you naked." The pity invite to Lorna's party, where she went and sat by herself.

Mary Sues doesn't go sit by themselves because hardly anyone wants to talk with them or sit and watch strippers with them. Mary Sues, generally, aren't bigots who embarrass themselves on a daily basis, even though they try hard, but have no/two whole friends.

Fine, fine. But she's still a creator's pet who was just irritating to read. Nurse Annie was awful. And Austen completely derailed Polaris in order to justify Havok hooking up with Nurse Annie. Bleh to Austen. Bleh I say!

[Anduinel]

I feel we may be working off different definitions wrt to Nurse Annie. Annie isn't a Sue in the mold of being universally beloved and objectively perfect, but she has a lot of the earmarks of the writer's pet/insert 'fic variety: she ingratiates herself very quickly with the canon team and becomes part of the central cast, her stated flaws don't actually provide her much difficulty or are conveniently ignored when they should represent huge challenges, she is an authorial stand-in/created as an idealized love-interest for the author's favorite (Austen stated in interviews that Havok was the character he identified with most, and Annie even has the same name and ethnic background as Austen's wife), established characterizations warp to serve her story, and characters who dislike her are presented as unpleasant/irrational/jealous/evil or else come around quickly.

Husk disliked her at first.

And then came around to the point that they were dishing about romance together.

Iceman disliked her, then hit on her.

Iceman was an asshole to everyone in Austen's run, partially due to his powers being in flux; he eased up on Annie a bit once she made him own up about his condition. He later confessed to Annie that he didn't actually dislike her, admired her wit, and even wound up kissing her shortly after she accused him of being a homophobe.

Polaris, natch.

Covered that one already.

Scott disliked her.

Scott wasn't part of Austen's regular cast. And after his initial suspicions about Annie, he wound up pushing Alex to be with her.

And she embarrassed herself or reacted poorly regularly. Panic attack over Xavier's psychic powers. Asking Husk if her powers were dangerous to her son. "I would have gladly bathed you naked."

As a reader, I did find Annie's reactions toward mutants inconsistent and occasionally idiotic (more on that below). But I don't believe that's how Austen intended Annie to be viewed. He took steps to try and make Annie seem like a devoted mother and caretaker and to make her sympathetic (as in making her part of a real-world group that's been the target of genocide) and he justified her fear of mutants by giving her an her ex who was a powerful evil mutant that she fled to protect her son. But he seemed to vastly overestimate the amount of patience and interest the audience had regarding the newcomer in the meantime. When he advanced her arc at the expense of established characters, he just wound up annoying a lot of the readers, whose sympathies were largely with the X-Men.

So far as the "I would have gladly bathed you naked" line, Austen's depictions of romance, sex, and relationships across his Uncanny and Adjectiveless runs are a whole other ball of weird.

The pity invite to Lorna's party, where she went and sat by herself. Mary Sues doesn't go sit by themselves because hardly anyone wants to talk with them or sit and watch strippers with them.

There's a huge difference in how Lorna and Annie were characterized up through the Sacred Vows story, though. Yeah, Annie was off talking with Bobby while everyone else paid attention to the bride-to-be, but it was insightful Annie having a real talk moment with Bobby with Lorna as the arc's designated Evil Bitch, holding court and reducing her suitors down to their genetic potential. It is a very weirdly executed scene all around -- especially Annie trying to call out Bobby for homophobia when her own statement of a couple panels before makes it seem he's not any more clueless about Northstar than the rest of the X-Men -- but Annie's obviously supposed to come off looking better.

Mary Sues, generally, aren't bigots who embarrass themselves on a daily basis, even though they try hard, but have no/two whole friends.

As written, Annie's anti-mutant bigotry is an example of an inconsistent/useless flaw. Her fear of mutants is given a lot of lip service, but has almost zero in the way of consequences or plot complications. It's reduced to a couple of mentions, blink-and-you'll-miss-it friction, and completely vanishes when it comes to Austen setting up his soap opera -- she kisses Bobby, hooks up with Alex, and when she finds out that her mutant kid has been psychically manipulating her so that she'll fall in love with her patient, she's so relieved that she literally falls to her knees in gratitude and hugs him. Instant forgiveness. There isn't even a sniff of a negative reaction and there are no repercussions whatsoever from this revelation.

Austen set up something potentially interesting with Annie. She could have been a challenge to Xavier's ideals: can you do this whole mutant-human co-existence deal with someone who has good reason to fear mutants? There was even an added wrinkle with her being Armenian-American; she could have had very close knowledge of the grimmest effects of minority oppression, so the X-Men have no trump card there. But the execution was utterly fumbled and was ultimately undermined so Austen could write a romance between his favorite and a character based on his wife. Once that was accomplished, Annie largely faded into the background.