LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Tiamatty]

I'd just like to see them in a book other than New Avengers. Maybe if Midnighter & Apollo sells well, we'll see more effort out of Marvel.

Yeah, I hope they land in another book soon, since it looks like they're not going to be a part of USAvengers.

Agreed. I find it kind of strange that people are so concerned about this Romeo kid, but are okay with adult Bobby being paired with a character that we very well know is willing to abuse his creepy pheromone powers. I could see a casual hook up, but it would have to made very clear that it's consensual.

I don't think a casual hook-up between Iceman and Daken would really work, either, as I'm not sure it would fit Daken's character. Daken's obviously not opposed to casual hook-ups, but I think for someone like Iceman, he'd only do it as part of some kind of plan. He'd be manipulating and using Iceman in order to accomplish something else. Not necessarily any big plan, but something that would entertain him.

Here's a thought though...would Marvel have Bobby date but make him as bad at dating men as he was at dating women...

I'm hoping we get to see him be terrible at dating men, too. Because Iceman is just terrible at dating.

Northstar is the answer.

It's canon he crushed on Bobby, his current husband is dead weight as he's never used/seen and it means a gay couple on a team where they can get some actual exposure and use.

My "solution" to the Kyle Jinadu "problem" is to have him become an X-Men supporting character. The X-Men used to have human supporting characters. Stevie Hunter, Candy Southern, that cop Archangel hooked up with, Opal Tanaka, Lee Forrester, Tom and Sharon, and others here and there. Human supporting characters were a thing. So, why not let that be a thing again? And why not let Kyle be a supporting character for the franchise? He's married to Northstar, but there's no reason why he can't do **** that has nothing to do with Northstar. So give him a job helping the X-Men in a mundane manner and being friends with some of them.

[Wiccan]

I still think sadistic, amoral, sociopathic Daken is a terrible choice as a hook-up for Iceman.

Daken's obviously not opposed to casual hook-ups, but I think for someone like Iceman, he'd only do it as part of some kind of plan. He'd be manipulating and using Iceman in order to accomplish something else. Not necessarily any big plan, but something that would entertain him.

But that's what makes it interesting! Sorry. I'm indeed a monster who likes to see the characters I like suffering.

[Tiamatty]

But that's what makes it interesting! Sorry. I'm indeed a monster who likes to see the characters I like suffering.

Personal dislike of pheromone powers aside, I think Iceman/Daken would be a mistake at this point. There's two ways it can go. Either Daken would be manipulating Iceman - meaning Iceman's first same-sex experience would be him getting played and used by a villain as a part of some likely-sadistic plot. Or Daken would genuinely care about Iceman, which . . . no. Just . . . no. Iceman is not a guy that makes sociopaths change their ways. A story where Daken cares about Iceman would be writing Daken wildly out-of-character, because he is legitimately a sociopath. He does not care about other people, at all.

The only person he's ever really cared about was that cop during the Williams run, and that was because she was also a sociopath and he saw himself in her. Sidenote: The Williams run remains, to me, the high point of Daken's existence, because I think Williams distilled Daken down to his very core: He's a sociopath who's just looking for something that will entertain him. Even at the end, when he took another shot at Wolverine, it felt less like the "Pay attention to me daddy!" of earlier (and later) arcs, and more just something he figured he should probably do before he died. I think a key point is how the arc with the Hollywood guy ended. Daken got the Runaways to attack him, and then just got bored and left before the fight was over, because it stopped being entertaining to him.

And then Remender returned him to being a goddamn whiny daddy-issue jackass in Uncanny X-Force.

[Kieran_Frost]

Daken's also be shown to care for Laura, Johnny Storm, Mystique, his mum, even Logan. I love the idea of Bobby/Daken's pairing. It makes so much sense. And would add GLORIOUS drama to the X-verse (think Emma Frost Morrison's run).

[Wiccan]

Personal dislike of pheromone powers aside, I think Iceman/Daken would be a mistake at this point. There's two ways it can go. Either Daken would be manipulating Iceman - meaning Iceman's first same-sex experience would be him getting played and used by a villain as a part of some likely-sadistic plot. Or Daken would genuinely care about Iceman, which . . . no. Just . . . no. Iceman is not a guy that makes sociopaths change their ways. A story where Daken cares about Iceman would be writing Daken wildly out-of-character, because he is legitimately a sociopath. He does not care about other people, at all.

The only person he's ever really cared about was that cop during the Williams run, and that was because she was also a sociopath and he saw himself in her. Sidenote: The Williams run remains, to me, the high point of Daken's existence, because I think Williams distilled Daken down to his very core: He's a sociopath who's just looking for something that will entertain him. Even at the end, when he took another shot at Wolverine, it felt less like the "Pay attention to me daddy!" of earlier (and later) arcs, and more just something he figured he should probably do before he died. I think a key point is how the arc with the Hollywood guy ended. Daken got the Runaways to attack him, and then just got bored and left before the fight was over, because it stopped being entertaining to him.

And then Remender returned him to being a goddamn whiny daddy-issue jackass in Uncanny X-Force.

You don't really need to care about someone to flirt, hook up, or have any physical action with them.
By Daken's part at least. Poor Bobby would probably have bigger feelings considering how he's been repressing himself for so long and can finally have some freedom.

And yeah for what Kieran said. I actually hate what Scemma become, how everything turned out with Jean being killed and their relationship ruined, but actually reading it, I enjoyed the drama, and it would be fine if it ended up with Scott realizing Jean's the one for him and then they restore their relationship(I guess that's not what Kieran feels though, lol.)

[Tiamatty]

Daken's also be shown to care for Laura, Johnny Storm, Mystique, his mum, even Logan. I love the idea of Bobby/Daken's pairing. It makes so much sense. And would add GLORIOUS drama to the X-verse (think Emma Frost Morrison's run).

I never got the impression that Daken actually gave a damn about Johnny or Mystique. He was playing Johnny, because he found it entertaining. And with Mystique, I think it was just two sociopaths having a good time together. With Laura, I think it's another case where he sees himself in her. They're both Logan's children, both abandoned by Logan (as Daken would see it, at least), both raised by despicable people to be killers, and both fought for their independence. Daken doesn't care about Laura, he cares about himself, and he cares about the parts of himself that he sees in Laura. Daken is a psychopath. I don't mean that in the usual, dismissive sense people use that term to mean a serial killer (though he is that, too). I mean he's a psychopath in the clinical sense. I think he lacks empathy for other people. He uses them for his own amusement. He doesn't care about them as anything other than toys. Most psychopaths are good people, of course, but they have impaired empathy, which makes it more difficult for them to relate to them and to have true emotional connections to them.

And I don't think Iceman/Daken makes a lick of sense, because Daken is a sadistic, psychopathic murderer, and Iceman's an awkward but compassionate hero. This isn't drama, this is them having not a single goddamn thing in common beyond being man who like men. Emma, at least, had already spent several years being a hero in Generation X, showing that she does care about people. Emma had redeemed herself by the time she hooked up with Scott. I think Daken is genuinely incapable of redemption, because redemption requires far more emotional depth than he is capable of. At best, he can approximate a Good Person, but it would be an act, just another mask he puts on to manipulate the people around him so he can get what he wants.

You don't really need to care about someone to flirt, hook up, or have any physical action with them.
By Daken's part at least. Poor Bobby would probably have bigger feelings considering how he's been repressing himself for so long and can finally have some freedom.

No, you don't have to care about someone to have a hook-up. But my point is that Daken wouldn't be likely to go after Iceman for a hook-up. If he were to hook up with Iceman, it would be for a reason beyond pleasure. He would have another goal in mind, a scheme he's playing out. And I don't think it would be a good idea for Iceman's first same-sex experience to be part of a villain's plot to strike against the X-Men.

And the other alternative would be for Daken to find out he actually does like Iceman, and that would be piss-poor writing that just completely ignores who Daken actually is as a character.

[Bosch]

You don't really need to care about someone to flirt, hook up, or have any physical action with them.
By Daken's part at least. Poor Bobby would probably have bigger feelings considering how he's been repressing himself for so long and can finally have some freedom.

I've been away from X books for awhile, but I can't envision Bobby being interested in Daken. For someone who pokes fun at Logan as much as he does, why would he be attracted to his doppelgänger? There's also the fact that he regards Logan as a pretty close colleague, which you think would go some way to discourage him from dating his son.

[Sutekh]

Maybe I read into those older issue, but it sometimes seemed to me that Bobby was a little snippy with / dismissive of Warren's girlfriend Candy Southern, which smacked to me of a bit of jealousy. (Not necessarily romantic jealousy, as I didn't think the writers were going there way back in the '80s, when Byrne's anvilicious hints about Northstar was about as 'gay' as it got. Just 'He's been my best friend forever, and now he spends all his time with his ladyfriend.') Various writers, including Whedon, have mentioned in text that Angel is supposed to be almost unnaturally good-looking (Emma telling Scott that pretty much every other member of the original five was better suited to lead the X-Men, describing Warren as 'practically a god'), so some sort of long-simmering attraction to Warren, ending up with a straight Warren unthinkingly shutting him down (since Warren's pretty messed up, at the moment), could be an unpleasant turn in the round to adult-Bobby's attempt at coming out.

His and Northstar's arc is amusing, in that it's never the right time. When Northstar is interested, Bobby's not. Now that Bobby might be, Northstar's not available. And I'm not sure Marvel is as willing to trash their first gay marriage the way they rush to jettison het marriages (like Peter and Mary-Jane or Clint and Bobbi or Vision and Wanda or Pietro and Crystal or T'Challa and Ororo). Whether or not Jean-Paul cheating on Kyle would be a 'good story' or not, Marvel got press out of it their marriage, and it seems like they'd keep Kyle and JP together (mostly off-screen and invisible, which, IMO, is arguably worse) rather than treat them the way they treated Scott and Maddy (or Scott and Jean).

Then again, I could be totally wrong. For all that people squawk about political correctness and replacing straight white dudes with more colorful and diverse options, Marvel doesn't seem all that terrified of off-handedly snuffing black characters like Goliath or War Machine. Maybe they'd be as quick to airlock Kyle as they were Candy Southern, Lee Forrester, Charlotte Jones, Trish Tilby, Moira McTaggart, etc. (Note to human women, mutant dudes are bad news! Run for your lives!)

[legion_quest]

My "solution" to the Kyle Jinadu "problem" is to have him become an X-Men supporting character. The X-Men used to have human supporting characters. Stevie Hunter, Candy Southern, that cop Archangel hooked up with, Opal Tanaka, Lee Forrester, Tom and Sharon, and others here and there. Human supporting characters were a thing. So, why not let that be a thing again? And why not let Kyle be a supporting character for the franchise? He's married to Northstar, but there's no reason why he can't do **** that has nothing to do with Northstar. So give him a job helping the X-Men in a mundane manner and being friends with some of them.

Used to is the key word. That isn't something they have any more, and all those character you just mentioned were equally dead weight characters. They appeared, said something cliche, then vanished again so the superhero/powers/villains drama could continue. If the character isnt an equal (in terms of also being on the team and having powers), then the relationships never get the time to develop because the focus is never on them - and rightly so - as the superhero genre isnt generally about pages of relationships unless you're a powered couple in a team book where the relationship can be the focus while all the superhero'ing is going on.

If you want to have a gay relationship and development of that be a focus, it has to be with two powered people - like we saw with Shatterstar/Rictor and Billy/Teddy. That's the way it works in these types of books. Otherwise the character is just relegated to cliche/there to be kidnapped.

Kyle already has a back story where he dislikes Northstar being a hero and dislikes being involved in the superhero stuff (which is why I think making him an Inhuman and giving him powers would just be forcing it). The simple story to play is that he got pissy with it, and so left. Jean Paul is sad and single, and Bobby is right there, also sad and single. Throw in Dazzler to play matchmaker and you have a great 'night on the town' to kick their relationship off!

[Fokken]

I'm linking folks to this interview with Steve Orlando, the writer of the Apollo & Midnighter series.

Yes, he's a DC writer and those are DC characters but the interview was very enlightening -- particularly about his insights on sales success and our collective responsibility regarding our online behavior and how it can benefit or hinder diversity improvement/representation.

http://comicsalliance.com/steve-orla...con-interview/

[legion_quest]

While I still shuddered at the use of the Q word in the article, the final point of the interview is one that everyone could stand to remember.

[Anduinel]

Kyle already has a back story where he dislikes Northstar being a hero and dislikes being involved in the superhero stuff (which is why I think making him an Inhuman and giving him powers would just be forcing it). The simple story to play is that he got pissy with it, and so left. Jean Paul is sad and single, and Bobby is right there, also sad and single. Throw in Dazzler to play matchmaker and you have a great 'night on the town' to kick their relationship off!

Kyle's had moments of doubt, but he's also been supportive of Northstar as a hero. Hell, at times he's been more for Northstar being a hero than Northstar has, because the superhero lifestyle isn't something Northstar was all that eager to sign up for. If Kyle actually said, "JP, I think you should hang up the tights", there's a better than even chance that Jean-Paul would happily oblige.

[legion_quest]

Kyle's had moments of doubt, but he's also been supportive of Northstar as a hero. Hell, at times he's been more for Northstar being a hero than Northstar has, because the superhero lifestyle isn't something Northstar was all that eager to sign up for. If Kyle actually said, "JP, I think you should hang up the tights", there's a better than even chance that Jean-Paul would happily oblige.

Yes, but that's the problem, as I see it. There isn't a story to tell there unless Northstar gets a solo, and that isnt happening.

For a minor team character to get a story, they need to be dating someone else on the team, else their non-powered partner is treated as a plot device (the 'partner is kidnapped' cliche) or simply ignored and never appears (where Kyle is now) which defeats the point of raising the status and the presence of LGBT characters.

[Bosch]

Whatever has gone wrong, that creator is never going to listen to an extremely visceral, angry sort of reaction and, at the same time, and I understand that anger, I’ve been there myself, but I don’t know that it helps move things forward. I’ve been that guy. “Obviously this has been written by a straight guy, f— this guy,” and that’s totally human. I do that all the time in many life situations.

And then I step back, and I’m like, well how can I unf— this guy? And that’s the second part that is beneficial. We are all in this together. More than ever, thanks to the internet community. And I think we need to work together to get what we want.

It feels a little disingenuous to make this statement while ignoring the fact that the industry is predominantly white, heterosexual, and male, especially at the editorial level, and this is how a lot of these "oops, I didn't mean to step in ****" situations arise. You can diversify your stable of characters as much as you want, but without minorities heavily involved at the creative level, misrepresentation is going to be a frequent occurrence. But I thought it was an interesting read.

[Anduinel]

Yes, but that's the problem, as I see it. There isn't a story to tell there unless Northstar gets a solo, and that isnt happening.

For a minor team character to get a story, they need to be dating someone else on the team, else their non-powered partner is treated as a plot device or simply ignored.

For a character to get a story, a writer and/or editorial needs to want to tell that story and be allowed to do it. Marvel largely isn't interested in promoting mutants, gay characters, or older characters who don't have a movie attached right now. Acting like Northstar's love interest is the big stumbling block when all of that is in the mix is pretty off base, imo.