LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[legion_quest]

I'm sorry it's an issue for you, but "queer" just makes more sense for my self-identification than LGBTQAINHJY+ does. Yeah, I'm gay, but when I discuss myself I prefer to use "queer". And policing how other people identify because of your own hangups isn't very progressive. :/

And here we have my point made in a nutshell.

Why is it ok for you to tell me off for my feelings about a word, but I cannot continue to be offended by it? Why do I have to accept an umbrella term that main stream media feel is ok to use to refer to me, when I find it offensive as anything?

Progression isnt about segregating everyone in to umbrella terms that accentuate the 'otherness' and the difference by the very denotation of the word. It's about coming together. How are you together if the label you've slapped on is saying 'I'm not normal?' Queer means abnormal. I am not abnormal.

While I agree that everyone is different and how you refer to yourself is your business even if I dont understand it (why refer to yourself using that word when you self identify as gay?), when someone has said, repeatedly, that they do not like that word, why is it ok to keep using it and to put down the person who has said they dont like it - especially when we're in a climate of watching and commentating on other language uses to describe other sections of society? If someone wants to self refer as that, go for it. But as an umbrella term that sucks me in regardless, no way. I will call it out every damn time.

The Luke Cage Netflix show is doing a great job of pointing out this very issue with the N word and how some people hate it even if it reclaimed. I feel the same here.

[Dermie]

I'm sorry it's an issue for you, but "queer" just makes more sense for my self-identification than LGBTQAINHJY+ does. Yeah, I'm gay, but when I discuss myself I prefer to use "queer". And policing how other people identify because of your own hangups isn't very progressive. :/

I would respectfully suggest that there is a difference between "policing how other people identify" and making a polite request to not use that word in this forum because there are people here who find it offensive.

[Silvermoth]

Someone asked Laverne Cox on Twitter which superheroes were her favourite. She said storm, Wonder Woman and mystique. She also said she would love to play a superhero and retweeted a suggestion for her to play She Hulk.

Imagine how great that would be!

[Kieran_Frost]

Also, speaking to Billy's extended family -- its so very sad (if it sticks) about Billy's Uncle spoilers:

Victor

end of spoilers

Wait, WHAT? What happened to Victor Mancha????

Questions...

1) Which character do you feel you most identify with?

2) What character would you be most attracted to?

What wonderful questions, New Mutant. A very exciting read, thank-you. Me personally...
1. Which character do you feel you most identify with?
Wiccan. 100%. I was close to his age when he had his debut, he's a comic nerd, he's kind and loving while having a darkness in him, and he has the most perfect partner. Plus he's visually similar to me too (in terms of hair, skin and eye colour).

2. What character would you be most attracted to?

Sorry to do this to you, as you are new and all, and welcome and I'm always pleased to see new LGBT identifying or allies posting, but still, I do it to everyone so can't help myself.
Can we please remember that the Q word is not reclaimed worldwide and is still a very hurtful term to some. Hardly anyone cares about my objections because apparently the majority deciding it's ok to use that word makes my objections null and void (love to see that suggested to other communities with other words), but yeah, I really dont like it.

I too hate the use of that word, it's not reclaimed across the world, it's just a nasty word in my eyes. And it's not the only term we can use, so why do some try and "insist" on their right to use it??? It's a word that can offend others, where as an umbrella term like LGBT offends no-one. Why not just use the term that won't offend anyone, over the term that might? It makes no sense to me, knowing it can be offensive, to insist on using it.

You are 100% right to point that out, legion. xx

I agree completely with the second half of your post. The term "queer" shouldn't be used as an umbrella term, especially with not being reclaimed in most areas.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

I'm sorry I hurt you. Which term do you recommend instead? (It's a genuine question: English isn't my first language, words don't have the same baggage for me.)

I always go with LGBT, or simply get specific (gay, lesbian, bi, T, etc). I'd recommend not using 'the Q word', unless it's only to describe yourself (and even then, I'd just say use something else if possible). Never, EVER use it to describe another LGBT person unless you know, categorically, they are okay with it's use (that's a majorly important one to remember). Hope that explained it better.

[Tiamatty]

Wait, WHAT? What happened to Victor Mancha????

The current Vision series happened to him. And you should read that book because it is frigging phenomenal. One of the best things Marvel has ever put out. Regardless, yeah, Victor showed up in Vision, and the book was not kind to him

I too hate the use of that word, it's not reclaimed across the world, it's just a nasty word in my eyes. And it's not the only term we can use, so why do some try and "insist" on their right to use it??? It's a word that can offend others, where as an umbrella term like LGBT offends no-one. Why not just use the term that won't offend anyone, over the term that might? It makes no sense to me, knowing it can be offensive, to insist on using it.

Some people dislike LGBT because it's actually very limited. "Queer" encompasses everything outside of cisgender heterosexual. LGBT covers four things. It doesn't include things like pansexual, asexual, gender fluid, intersex, two-gendered, and so on. LGBT+ kinda helps with that, but it still indicates where the emphasis is, on who in the non-cis/non-het community matters and who's an afterthought. LGBTQ almost works, but has a bit of a similar issue, of "these groups are all distinct while all the rest can be lumped together as Other."

[NexusTenebrare]

Some people dislike LGBT because it's actually very limited. "Queer" encompasses everything outside of cisgender heterosexual. LGBT covers four things. It doesn't include things like pansexual, asexual, gender fluid, intersex, two-gendered, and so on. LGBT+ kinda helps with that, but it still indicates where the emphasis is, on who in the non-cis/non-het community matters and who's an afterthought. LGBTQ almost works, but has a bit of a similar issue, of "these groups are all distinct while all the rest can be lumped together as Other."

Then they should use a word that hasn't historically been used as a slur against LGBT people.
The idea that a group that doesn't even want to consider themselves LGBT would reclaim a word that insults LGBT people is repugnant to me.
Would it be okay for asians to start calling themselves the N-word in an attempt to reclaim it?

[Solitaryhawk]

1. Hmm. Rictor, maybe. We both came out at around the same time and age. Under PAD he had a history of depression. They're aren't really any characters with similar anxiety issues though.

2. Just about any dudes drawn by Wada, Coipel, Dauterman, Marquez, Staples, Caselli, and some Anka (his faces tend to be a little too stylized to be really attractive for my tastes).

Taking into account that side dalliance with Rahne, I can understand Rictor's confusion, self-identity issues, and acute depression before Shatterstar's appearance in X-Factor pulled him out of the closet. It was well handled and made for a great read.

"Speaking of the pair" have they appeared in any Marvel title since that series was cancelled? Or are they still in LGBT limbo?

[Fokken]

It took a considerable amount of time and effort but I finally completed my homage to Mahmud Asrar's work using Billy Kaplan.

Hope folks find it fun to look at.

[Kieran_Frost]

The current Vision series happened to him. And you should read that book because it is frigging phenomenal. One of the best things Marvel has ever put out. Regardless, yeah, Victor showed up in Vision, and the book was not kind to him

These two things don't go hand-in-hand for me. WHY would I read a series specifically for a character I know they won't be kind to??? That's like tell me to read Squirrel Girl because Wiccan shows up and is jobbed out.

Some people dislike LGBT because it's actually very limited. "Queer" encompasses everything outside of cisgender heterosexual. LGBT covers four things. It doesn't include things like pansexual, asexual, gender fluid, intersex, two-gendered, and so on. LGBT+ kinda helps with that, but it still indicates where the emphasis is, on who in the non-cis/non-het community matters and who's an afterthought. LGBTQ almost works, but has a bit of a similar issue, of "these groups are all distinct while all the rest can be lumped together as Other."

No, LGBT is an umbrella term these days; it doesn't have to be taken as the literal acronym; much like Chairman doesn't actually have to mean male, it's a title. LGBT is an umbrella grouping. While I do agree a few feel slightly marginalized by not being included in the literal acronym (and I feel sympathy for that), the fact is it's merely the evolution from acronym to "group title". On top of that LGBT doesn't have a nasty history of being HORRIBLY used to attack LGBT people (the Q word does). The fact is LGBT doesn't offended, the Q word does. So it's best to not use it. Simples.

Then they should use a word that hasn't historically been used as a slur against LGBT people.
The idea that a group that doesn't even want to consider themselves LGBT would reclaim a word that insults LGBT people is repugnant to me.
Would it be okay for asians to start calling themselves the N-word in an attempt to reclaim it?

That's a very fair point, that I hadn't considered.

Speaking of the pair" have they appeared in any Marvel title since that series was cancelled? Or are they still in LGBT limbo?

To my knowledge, sadly not. Not even in Peter David's All New X-Factor. Did they even get a cameo in Secret Wars?

[Kieran_Frost]

It took a considerable amount of time and effort but I finally completed my homage to Mahmud Asrar's work using Billy Kaplan.

Hope folks find it fun to look at.

This is the most beautiful piece of fan art; Fokken I'm so in awe of this. May I have your permission (credited of course) to pin this to the front page? In homage to the most popular LGBT Marvel character.

[Fokken]

I'm honored, KF. Thanks!

[Kieran_Frost]

I'm honored, KF. Thanks!

Done and done. So proud of your work, SO HAPPY to include our boy in the OP.

[Tiamatty]

Then they should use a word that hasn't historically been used as a slur against LGBT people.
The idea that a group that doesn't even want to consider themselves LGBT would reclaim a word that insults LGBT people is repugnant to me.
Would it be okay for asians to start calling themselves the N-word in an attempt to reclaim it?

Well, they don't consider themselves LGBT because they're not lesbian, gay, bisexual or trans. They are something else. Asexuality is not covered by that list, for example. But they still have a non-standard sexual orientation. They're still marginalized as a result of it. But LGBT is an acronym that excludes them, so why would they identify as that? And a lot of people who would fall under the acronym identify as queer, as well - Kate Leth springs to mind, she's bisexual but identifies as queer - so it's not like it's just people who don't fit the acronym.

I try to remember to use LGBT in this thread, rather than queer (except for people who do identify as queer). I'm just saying why some people prefer queer as an umbrella. And I think your analogy is insulting to those people.

These two things don't go hand-in-hand for me. WHY would I read a series specifically for a character I know they won't be kind to??? That's like tell me to read Squirrel Girl because Wiccan shows up and is jobbed out.

You'd read Vision because it's a brilliant book and one of the best things Marvel's ever put out. And you'd read Squirrel Girl because it's hilarious and wonderful.

No, LGBT is an umbrella term these days; it doesn't have to be taken as the literal acronym; much like Chairman doesn't actually have to mean male, it's a title. LGBT is an umbrella grouping. While I do agree a few feel slightly marginalized by not being included in the literal acronym (and I feel sympathy for that), the fact is it's merely the evolution from acronym to "group title". On top of that LGBT doesn't have a nasty history of being HORRIBLY used to attack LGBT people (the Q word does). The fact is LGBT doesn't offended, the Q word does. So it's best to not use it. Simples.

Well, a female Chairman will often be called Chairwoman, and there is also the gender-neutral Chairperson. Chairman as a gender-neutral term is very much unevenly applied. With LGBT being an umbrella, I think one thing that's worth noting is how it can actually subtly influence perception. It wouldn't even be something we think about. But the words we use do shape how we view things, so when we use LGBT as a catch-all for anyone who's non-cis or non-het, it does place a subtle hierarchy, where those four are the ones who "matter," while anyone else isn't really considered. It makes it a little harder for, as an example, a bigender person to be heard. There's a subtle pressure against them speaking out, and people are subtly less inclined to listen. I was friends with an asexual girl in college, and she actually complained that she disliked the Gay-Lesbian Alliance because she felt excluded. I doubt she's alone in that feeling.

No doubt it's a complicated issue. People often underestimate the power of language, so figuring out terms that can make people feel welcomed and included can be tricky.

[legion_quest]

It took a considerable amount of time and effort but I finally completed my homage to Mahmud Asrar's work using Billy Kaplan.

Hope folks find it fun to look at.

This is awesome. I would love a huge print of it for my wall.

[Dante Milton]

To my knowledge, sadly not. Not even in Peter David's All New X-Factor. Did they even get a cameo in Secret Wars?

Rictor showed up in X-Tinction Agenda, and Star was in X-Men '92. I haven't read them, but I don't think either appearance was more than a cameo.

Beautiful work, Fokken!