LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Kieran_Frost]

Well Ewing IS the writer who scooped up and WROTE WELL: America on the Ultimates— even establishing her first romance IIRC, Billy and Teddy in the New Avengers furthering their mythos , Connecting Toni and Aikku in USAvengers and then plucked Lightning from obscurity!
And based on his very passionate interviews I’d say the ally component is STRONG in this one

I think I still like to throw a little shade on Ewing because of Loki's absence of confirmed bisexuality IN HIS OWN SERIES! Our fifth LGBT+ series and the B part got ignored. Which for such a strong ally... confused me. #neverforget And while I do applaud Ewing for giving us the first LGBT+ leader of an Avengers team with Wiccan leading the new new NEW Avengers, I never felt a thrill when he wrote Wiccan (plus that unnecessary dig from Power Man about the name; felt a tad... mean spirited). Toni and Pod was lovely though, you got me there.

[Drops Of Venus]

Oh, I'm still bummed that Moondragon hasn't been introduced in the MCU as one of the 'daughters of Thanos' (since we know he has a penchant for kidnapping young girls from families / cultures he's had killed, per Gamora and Nebula, and empowering them and raising them as his enforcers, and that he had the Mind Stone, capable of empowering the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver). Drax finding out that his daughter had actually lived, and been raised as one of Thanos' daughters would have been many times more powerful a story than anything involving Mantis, IMO.

I agree with this 100%. Moondragon makes so much sense in the MCU; she connects all the dots between Thanos and GOTG. I actually believe she might've been the character Gunn said was cut from the second movie. At one point, he even said that Mantis was there to ''replace the role of Drax's daughter'' or something like that. I think they wanted her there because they realize she is important, but they still couldn't figure out a way to introduce the character. I have this wishful thinking she might appear or at least be mentioned in Avengers 3 or 4, since I'm assuming there will be a moment where Drax will get to confront Thanos about the death of his family. Taking the wishful thinking a little be further, maybe she could even be a surprise member of the Black Order, since Supergiant (also a telepath) is completely missing for some reason. Maybe they could give that role to Heather.

[Dermie]

I think I still like to throw a little shade on Ewing because of Loki's absence of confirmed bisexuality IN HIS OWN SERIES! Our fifth LGBT+ series and the B part got ignored. Which for such a strong ally... confused me. #neverforget

I think you may need to let that one go at some point, since I think it is a pretty big stretch for that to be a reason Ewing gets "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much praise". Sure, he didn't give Loki a male love interest in the series. But he did acknowledge Loki's bisexuality (both in interviews where he explicitly stated it, and in the story with flirtatious moments) and he expressly dealt with Loki's genderfluid nature and had that lovely bit with Odin describing his children with "my son, my daughter and my child who is both". Ewing's LOKI run definitely provided LGBT representation, even if we didn't get any hot man-on-man action for the god of mischief. (I do agree its too bad we didn't get any Loki man-on-man action in that book though)

[Kieran_Frost]

I think you may need to let that one go at some point, since I think it is a pretty big stretch for that to be a reason Ewing gets "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much praise".

No, I stand by my opinion. He does get WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much praise. Simply because: he does. Even when New Avengers and Ultimates first came out, he was getting fawned over for his LGBT+ "inclusion." And to be clear: Al Ewing has included us, but let's not pretend this makes him the messiah of LGBT+ inclusion (hence the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much praise). To explain it another way: I think Robert deNiro is the most overrated actor in Hollywood. He gets (in my mind) WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much praise. This doesn't mean I think Robert deNiro is a bad actor, far from it. Merely that I think the lorded title of "one of the greats" is disproportionate to what I see him deliver. The same is true of Ewing. He gets far too much praise for... basically including us. Is that how low the bar is these days? That simply not ignoring LGBT+ people exist gets "super ally" status? Marvel has had nine LGBT+ solo series (in the last 13 years). He is one of less than a dozen writers at Marvel who has written an LGBT+ solo series, and yet he is one of the only one who never mentioned that his character is attracted to the same sex in the solo series. As you rightly pointed out, even Brian K. Vaughan managed to mention Mystique's sexuality back in 2005.

ANYONE who gets "super ally" status doesn't do that (in my opinion). A super ally doesn't write one of the rarely seen LGBT+ solo series and NOT mention the character is attracted to the same sex. That's a JK Rowling ally fail, if ever I saw one.

Sure, he didn't give Loki a male love interest in the series. But he did acknowledge Loki's bisexuality (both in interviews where he explicitly stated it, and in the story with flirtatious moments) and he expressly dealt with Loki's genderfluid nature and had that lovely bit with Odin describing his children with "my son, my daughter and my child who is both".

I rarely care what a writer says in interviews, only because (cynically) talk is cheap. JK Rowling is great talking about Dumbledore being gay... in interviews... never seems to translate to her work though And I did very much like that line about "my child who is both"... but technically that wasn't in the Loki solo series, but the 5th Realm (I forget the title) mini-series combined, no? That said (as we've talked about in this thread before) I'm... unsure... how I feel about using shapeshifters for trans representation. Xavin... never sat well with me. I understand often superhero comics take metaphors for real-world situations and add that superhero flare, but being able to instantly move from one gender to another doesn't (in my mind) fairly depict the struggle and emotional reality of being trans.

Ewing's LOKI run definitely provided LGBT representation, even if we didn't get any hot man-on-man action for the god of mischief. (I do agree its too bad we didn't get any Loki man-on-man action in that book though)

Dermie... I know you didn't intentionally mean to belittle my objection to Ewing as nothing more than "wanting man-on-man action", but I feel it came across as that (unintentionally mind, so I'm not mad, just observing). So let me be clear for those reading, since I know you and I are on the same page: at the time this comic was in print it was (from memory) the only current LGBT+ solo series at Marvel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Angela wasn't confirmed interested in Sera until after this series ended (in her second series, Queen of Hel) and Daken's solo had also ended. And Loki's sexuality for the same sex wasn't mentioned. Not once. And it's not like romance never came up, and it's not like Ewing lacked a moment to do it. The fact Ewing mentioned his bisexuality in interviews (in my opinion) makes it even worse. He clearly knew about it, just never cared to actually explore it (or mention it). Consider how HUNGRY we were for inclusion at the time. Is it not a little tone deaf to be writing the only LGBT+ solo series at Marvel, and yet never mention he's bisexual???

This has nothing to do with getting no man-on-man action on panel. One recurring annoyance I have when defending LGBT+ inclusion (in all media) to those who 'coincidentally' never seem to support adding it: is this idea mentioning sexuality = gay sex. It shows a lack of understanding, and an absence of reality in the world we live in. Many, many str8 people are clueless about how often they "ping" their sexuality. Or see their sexuality "ping'd" in media. Utterly oblivious. Yet the moment someone objects to an absence of LGBT+ characters in a franchise or TV series; you get the same ignorant replies... bemoaning how this isn't a porno. As if the only way to mention someone's sexuality is depicting them balls deep in the same sex.

So for the record: my wish and desire to see clear representation of LGBT+ characters in media is about just that.
#truthbombOFLOVE

[Kieran_Frost]

Though that seems to be a good time to update the OP pages. Any additions needed to these? And yes the "who's who of LGBT+ characters in comics a very out of date, apologies.


FROM OP...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LGBT ON-GOING SERIES
(2005) Mystique #1-24 (by Brian K. Vaughan/Sean McKeever) [MARVEL'S FIRST LGBT ON-GOING]
(2009) Dark Wolverine vol. 1 #75-90 (by Marjorie Liu/Daniel Way)
(2010) Daken: Dark Wolverine vol. 2 #1-23 (by Marjorie Liu/Daniel Way/Rob Williams)
(2011) Herc #1-10 (by Greg Pak/Fred vanLente)
(2014) Loki: Agent of Asgard #1-17 (by Al Ewing)
(2015) Angela: Queen of Hel #1-7 (by Marguerite Bennett)
(2016) Hercules #1-6 (by Dan Abnett)
(2017) Miss America Chavez #1-2 (by Gabrielle Rivera)
(2017) Iceman #1-11 (by Sina Grace)

LGBT MINI-SERIES
(1994) Northstar #1-4 (by Simon Furman)
(1996) Sabertooth & Mystique #1-4 (by Jorge Gonzalez)
(2003) Rawhide Kid #1-5 (by Ron Zimmerman)
(2006) Young Avengers/Runaways: Civil War #1-4 (by Zeb Wells)
(2007) Annihilation: Conquest - Quasar #1-4 (by Christos Gage)
(2008) Secret Invasion: Young Avengers/Runaways #1-3 (by Chris Yost)
(2010) Avengers: Children's Crusade #1-12 (by Allen Heinberg) [nom. 2011 GLAAD Media Award] [nom. 2012 GLAAD Media Award]
(2010) Rawhide Kid #1-4 (by Ron Zimmerman)
(2016) Vote Loki #1-4 (by Christopher Hastings)

IMPORTANT LGBT COMICS
(2003) X-Statix #1-26 (by Peter Millgen) [nom. 2003 GLAAD Media Award]
(2003) Runaways #1-18 (by Brian K. Vaughan)
(2005) Young Avengers vol. 1 #1-12 (by Allen Heinberg) [AWARDED 2006 GLAAD MEDIA AWARD]
(2005) Runaways #1-30 (by Brian K. Vaughan/Joss Whedon)
(2006) X-factor vol. 3 #43-50/200-259 (by Peter David) [nom. 2010 GLAAD Media Award] [AWARDED 2011 GLAAD MEDIA AWARD] [nom. 2012 GLAAD Media Award]
(2010) Avengers Academy #1-39 (by Cristos Gage)
(2012) Astonishing X-men #48-68 (by Marjorie Liu) [nom. 2013 GLAAD Media Award]
(2208) Runaways #1-14 (by Terry Moore/Kathryn Immonen)
(2013) Fearless Defenders #1-13 (by Cullen Bunn) [nom. 2014 GLAAD Media Award]
(2013) Young Avengers vol. 2 #1-15 (by Kieron Gillen) [AWARDED 2014 GLAAD MEDIA AWARD]
Hawkeye (by Matt Fraction) [nom. 2015 GLAAD Media Award]
(2015) Angela: Queen of Hel #1-7 [nom. 2016 GLAAD Media Award]
(2016) All-New X-Men (by Dennis Hopeless) [nom. 2017 GLAAD Media Award]
(2016) Black Panther #1- PRESENT (by Ta-Nehisi Coates) [nom. 2017 GLAAD Media Award]
(2016) Patsy Walker, A.K.A Hellcat! #1-PRESENT (by Kate Leth) [nom. 2017 GLAAD Media Award]

COMICS OF NOTE
(1992) Alpha Flight #106 (by Scott Lobdell) (Northstar comes out as gay) - the ONLY comic included in the Gaylatic Hall of Fame -
(2012) Astonishing X-men #51, May (by Marjorie Liu) (Marvel's first ever LGBT wedding)
(2013) Uncanny X-men #14 (by Brian Michael Bendis) ~ Benjamin Deeds comes out ~
(2015) All New X-men #40 (by Brian Michael Bendis) ~ Iceman (helped by Jean Grey) comes to accept he's gay ~
(2015) Amazing Spider-Man vol. 4 #1 (by Dan Slott) ~ the wedding of Max Modell ~
(2015) Angela: Assassin of Asgard #3 (by Kieron Gillen) ~ Sera is revealed as the first true trans superhero ~

CURRENT LGBT CHARACTERS ACTIVE IN COMICS
- All New X-men. Iceman.
- Ant Man. Machinesmith. Ant-Man.
- Carnage. Victoria Montesi.
- Deadpool. Shiklah
- Extraordinary X-men. Iceman. Anole. Storm (debatable)
- Great Lake Avengers. Flatman.
- Guardians of the Galaxy. Angela.
- Hellcat. Ian Soo. Tom Hale.
- Ms. Marvel. Zoe
- Silk. Lola. Rafferty.
- Squadron Supreme. Thundra.
- Squirrel Girl. Koi Boi.
- Spiderman 2099. Jasmine.
- USAvengers. Toni Ho (Enigma). Pod (Iron Patriot).
- Ultimates. MAC.
- Uncanny X-men. Mystique. Fantomex. Psylocke (debatable)
- World of Wakanda. Midnight Angels (Ayo and Aneka)

[Wiccan]

Kieran, aren't you the one who acts like Bendis is an LGBT saviour for outing Iceman(even though he just randomly dropped the bomb at the end of his run)?

[Kieran_Frost]

Kieran, aren't you the one who acts like Bendis is an LGBT saviour for outing Iceman(even though he just randomly dropped the bomb at the end of his run)?

BWWWHAHAHAHA! Ya got me gurl, ya got me good! I don't think Bendis is an LGBT+ saviour, no. I do think he was one of the best writers for consistently including LGBT+ characters, at a time where many comics were not doing that. Time frame matters. But I don't think he'd be up there with say Peter David, Kieron Gillen or Brian K. Vaughan. But neither do I think Ewing should be there either (and my objection is seeing so many want to talk about him in that sense).

[Wiccan]

BWWWHAHAHAHA! Ya got me gurl, ya got me good! I don't think Bendis is an LGBT+ saviour, no. I do think he was one of the best writers for consistently including LGBT+ characters, at a time where many comics were not doing that. Time frame matters. But I don't think he'd be up there with say Peter David, Kieron Gillen or Brian K. Vaughan. But neither do I think Ewing should be there either (and my objection is seeing so many want to talk about him in that sense).

I don't think we've reached a point where including LGBT characters in comics is all that common, unfortunately... Honestly I think that just including LGBT characters and not doing anything with their sexuality is just... Yeah, nice that the characters are being used at all, but that's it. Ewing in 2016 was writing 5 LGBT characters, all of them in relationships being developed. For me personally, that's what I care the most about. It's just kinda uncalled for that every time someone mentions him you go "BUT MUH LOKEE!" when the same happened for some characters you praise Bendis for including.

[Jumpyshark]

You also never know what obstacles writers (& Editors, there are always bigger fish) are facing when it comes to getting approval for That Gay Shit, whether it's harsh or fair or BS etc etc.

[Captain M]

Kieran, shouldn't we include Avengers Arena and Undercover too? Cullen was a major character

[Captain M]

I don't think we've reached a point where including LGBT characters in comics is all that common, unfortunately... Honestly I think that just including LGBT characters and not doing anything with their sexuality is just... Yeah, nice that the characters are being used at all, but that's it. Ewing in 2016 was writing 5 LGBT characters, all of them in relationships being developed. For me personally, that's what I care the most about. It's just kinda uncalled for that every time someone mentions him you go "BUT MUH LOKEE!" when the same happened for some characters you praise Bendis for including.

Lately I've been finding myself looking forward to possibility of AAA games having LGBT characters more than anything else. I hate that it's so uncommon. I want to see more lgbt characters in all media. TV shows have it covered mostly but comics and games are far behind.

Notable additions I can think of in the recent years are Kung Jin from Mortal Kombat, Tracer from Overwatchi, Ciri from the Witcher. There should be more.

If you guys like video games I highly recommend the Dragon Age franchise. The games have 10+ notable lgbt characters.

[Fokken]

<ahem>
Show of hands please: WHO is praising Ewing as a

messiah of LGBTQ inclusion

?
I'm looking very closely now, so NOOOO disassembling your respective Ewing-altars or writing over your etsy t-shirts with a magic marker, kids.
Authenticity first! Live your truth!

.....anyone?



.....Bueller?




Hmm.

What was it then? Oh, it was

Ewing tends to give us good LGBT content

???
Well that's just unadulterated abuse of sarcasm and hyperbole. Pffft. "TENDS"
Shame on you, maxhilary.

Creative allies for inclusion should always be celebrated.
The absence of LGBTQ themes from one work of art (Loki), ought not dismiss/under-or-devalue the LGBTQ themes included in subsequent works of art (Ultimates, New Avengers, USAvengers, & No Surrender)

[Anduinel]

You also never know what obstacles writers (& Editors, there are always bigger fish) are facing when it comes to getting approval for That Gay Shit, whether it's harsh or fair or BS etc etc.

I suspect that's why Loki and Herc's sexualities are still down to inference and innuendo, tbh. They're characters Marvel could potentially cross-promote in films. C-List Avengers and most X-Men (prior to the Disney interest), not so much. Though if Marvel is starting to gear up for Young Avengers appearances in Phase 4... well, that will be interesting. Because Billy and Teddy are 100% THE breakout characters from that title.

[Triniking1234]

Bendis consistently uses LGBT+ characters? Besides Vicky Hand (who's a corpse now), Benjamin Deeds and Teen Iceman?

[Fokken]

Bendis consistently uses LGBT+ characters? Besides Vicky Hand (who's a corpse now), Benjamin Deeds and Teen Iceman?

Benji had A throw away line during his training with Frost and Rasputin.
It wasn't until Strain's GenX that we really got any follow up.

Another Bendis Lob.

Again -- ALL inclusion should be celebrated, however big or small. But more IS more.