LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Anduinel]

Thanks for that! I did not think they were going to try and retcon away his sexuality or anything like that, but I also figured it might not come up much--aside from maybe at the very beginning of the mini. The article refers to his life falling apart which is what drives him back to his gladiatorial life, so I figured the mini was going to start with the reveal that Rictor and Shattybuns have broken up.

Ditto. Or more in the vein of Northstar's old mini-series or the current attitude toward Herc. "Oh, we haven't *undone* anything! We're just not gonna mention the whole liking boys thing..."

And under different circumstances, I would've sided with someone complaining about asexual erasure, but his reasoning at the time didn't feel like genuine concern over ace representation at all, but more like someone who just didn't want the character to be in a homosexual relationship.

Yeah. Like the concern-trolls who want to know why folks aren't agitating for more great characters like Northguy, Witch-man, and Hulk Jr whenever someone brings up Marvel/the MCU needing higher profile queer characters. They don't actually care about representation, they just want folks to stop talking about icky gay stuff.

[Tiamatty]

And under different circumstances, I would've sided with someone complaining about asexual erasure, but his reasoning at the time didn't feel like genuine concern over ace representation at all, but more like someone who just didn't want the character to be in a homosexual relationship. That's all in the past anyway, since as Dermie pointed out, he has apparently moved on from that mindset (at least publicly).

Agreed. If Liefeld ha said he feels asexuals are underrepresented, and that it's important to have ace rep, then I would've been sympathetic. But he compared Shatterstar to the Spartans. Who were pretty goddamn gay.

I do still want to see ace representation, though.

[MsAngel]

I do still want to see ace representation, though.

Same. Anyone we think could/should be ace? I know Nadia's a popular choice, and I remember Magik was brought up before, but I'm sure there are others.

[Tiamatty]

Same. Anyone we think could/should be ace? I know Nadia's a popular choice, and I remember Magik was brought up before, but I'm sure there are others.

I've suggested Jubilee. I could see her as a biromantic asexual.

[Silvermoth]

The writer confirmed Rictor is on it, and that it will be "Pretty damn bi", if there's anyone worried about that(there was a bunch on the X-forums since the writer said he's inspired by Liefield's take...).

Exactly what I wanted to hear!

I wonder if the writer is family? He seems to have written Grayson according to that article and that was a pretty sexy series

[Dermie]

Ditto. Or more in the vein of Northstar's old mini-series or the current attitude toward Herc. "Oh, we haven't *undone* anything! We're just not gonna mention the whole liking boys thing..."

Well, Hercules isn't quite a fair comparison. Herc's bisexuality has only rarely been referenced on-panel in the first place, and not as explicitly as Shatterstar's. For Herc's bisexuality to not come up often is status quo for him, not a sign of anything being ignored.

The NORTHSTAR mini is a good example though. That said, it does look like Simon Furman did manage to slip in a possible boyfriend or two for Jean-Paul in that mini by not directly acknowledging the relationship (just like Byrne did with him and Maurice back in the early days of ALPHA FLIGHT). However if someone came into that miniseries with no prior knowledge of Northstar's sexuality, it certainly did not do anything to help you figure it out!

[Anduinel]

Well, Hercules isn't quite a fair comparison. Herc's bisexuality has only rarely been referenced on-panel in the first place, and not as explicitly as Shatterstar's. For Herc's bisexuality to not come up often is status quo for him, not a sign of anything being ignored.

Considering that was the defense used after Alonso put his foot in it, I'd say it's very fair. Herc's bisexuality not being referenced isn't a matter of status quo so much as it is Marvel hoping people forget about it without their getting any more bad PR.

Shatterstar's sexuality being similarly swept under the rug would get some outcry, but if a writer wanted to be weasely about sidestepping it, they'd just have to say something like "it's a solo story, there wasn't room for it, but that doesn't mean we've undone anything, other writers are free to explore it down the line". Happily, it doesn't look like Seely's going that route.

The NORTHSTAR mini is a good example though. That said, it does look like Simon Furman did manage to slip in a possible boyfriend or two for Jean-Paul in that mini by not directly acknowledging the relationship (just like Byrne did with him and Maurice back in the early days of ALPHA FLIGHT). However if someone came into that miniseries with no prior knowledge of Northstar's sexuality, it certainly did not do anything to help you figure it out!

I am aware of Raul. But putting an uncomfirmed "old friend" who meets a bad end into a mini-series that came out after AF #106, and then never directly referencing Northstar's sexuality (but having him called an "abomination", "unclean", and “an aberration of nature, one that needs removing from polite society” was fine) isn't something anyone should be getting points for. Especially given that the attention generated by Northstar's coming out was the whole reason he got a miniseries in the first place.

[Dermie]

Considering that was the defense used after Alonso put his foot in it, I'd say it's very fair. Herc's bisexuality not being referenced isn't a matter of status quo so much as it is Marvel hoping people forget about it without their getting any more bad PR.

I'm sorry, but that isn't really true. Hercules was around as an active Marvel character for decades with no mention of his bisexuality. It wasn't until Pak and Van Lente's INCREDIBLE HERCULES series that it started to be acknowledged, through infrequent hints--never stated outright on-panel. That has continued with the occasional hint (such as in Abnett's HERCULES series, or Aaron's THOR run). Occasional hints and nods IS the status quo for regular-continuity Herc. Unfortunately they've not gone any further than that yet.

I am aware of Raul. But putting an uncomfirmed "old friend" who meets a bad end into a mini-series that came out after AF #106, and then never directly referencing Northstar's sexuality (but having him called an "abomination", "unclean", and “an aberration of nature, one that needs removing from polite society” was fine) isn't something anyone should be getting points for. Especially given that the attention generated by Northstar's coming out was the whole reason he got a miniseries in the first place.

I agree; that miniseries really dropped the ball. However I would suggest that there may be a disconnect here between the writer's influence and the editorial influence. If editorial banned any direct reference to Northstar's sexuality (which is almost certainly the case) then the writer trying to still convey some sense of it within those restrictions should still be worth something. Its not as much as it could or should have been--but its as much as he could do with the restrictions he was under.

Now, that's assuming it was editorial influence and not Furman's own choice to never use the word "gay" and just make references to his "lifestyle". But given that he introduced Raul as the guy waiting for Jean-Paul in his bedroom, and the two of them having a conversation sitting beside each other on JP's bed, I do think he was trying to at least imply a more-than-friends relationship there.

[Sutekh]

Yeah, Liefeld wanted him to be asexual. You know, like the Spartans. There was certainly nothing gay about the Spartans, right?

Ha! Burn. Tiamatty, you are the wind beneath my wings.

Or possibly the rainbow-colored chemtrail beneath my fusillage, in this case.

[Anduinel]

I'm sorry, but that isn't really true. Hercules was around as an active Marvel character for decades with no mention of his bisexuality. It wasn't until Pak and Van Lente's INCREDIBLE HERCULES series that it started to be acknowledged, through infrequent hints--never stated outright on-panel. That has continued with the occasional hint (such as in Abnett's HERCULES series, or Aaron's THOR run). Occasional hints and nods IS the status quo for regular-continuity Herc. Unfortunately they've not gone any further than that yet.

I suspect we may be talking past each other a bit on this point; it feels like I'm leaning more meta, while you're leaning more in-story. I wasn't saying that Herc's sexuality has ever been directly confirmed in the 616, but that Marvel continually refusing to address the elephant in the room by confirming it meant I didn't find it beyond the realm of believability that they'd let a writer get away with sidelining Shatterstar's sexuality, especially for the duration of a five-issue story, so long as they weren't courting bad press by making it an explicit rollback.

I agree; that miniseries really dropped the ball. However I would suggest that there may be a disconnect here between the writer's influence and the editorial influence. If editorial banned any direct reference to Northstar's sexuality (which is almost certainly the case) then the writer trying to still convey some sense of it within those restrictions should still be worth something. Its not as much as it could or should have been--but its as much as he could do with the restrictions he was under.

Now, that's assuming it was editorial influence and not Furman's own choice to never use the word "gay" and just make references to his "lifestyle". But given that he introduced Raul as the guy waiting for Jean-Paul in his bedroom, and the two of them having a conversation sitting beside each other on JP's bed, I do think he was trying to at least imply a more-than-friends relationship there.

I'm 99% sure it was editorial who put Northstar back into "don't say gay" territory since they would have gotten last word on what made it to the page. At the very least, given the content of the story, we have a good indication that editorial at the time wasn't very supportive of an out lead character. But the reason I don't give Furman himself much credit there regardless (even aside from the quality of the story) is because he did nothing not already covered multiple times under Byrne and Mantlo in the previous decade, and none of it was taken any further than what had been done when the alleged ban on gay characters was in effect at Marvel. Nonentity, unconfirmed love interests (Maurice, JP's "special friends") and a multitude of coded insults were already the standard markers for Northstar's homosexuality. Instead of unceremoniously killing/shuffling Raul off-stage early on, for example, Furman might have had him be the dear friend from the past Northstar was racing to save from a Parisian death trap for a happy reunion, giving us less telling about how much he meant to JP and more showing. Instead of cementing that there was no romance at all between Raymonde and Northstar by making theirs a father-son relationship, he might have clarified Byrne's ambiguous wording about Northstar's age in the other direction to shore up the subtext of their having been lovers at one point.* That sort of thing would have all still been below sightline, but at least a bit less regressive.

*Not that I'm especially heartbroken at losing out on yet another Byrne May-December relationship, but in context, it's annoying.

[Dermie]

I suspect we may be talking past each other a bit on this point; it feels like I'm leaning more meta, while you're leaning more in-story. I wasn't saying that Herc's sexuality has ever been directly confirmed in the 616, but that Marvel continually refusing to address the elephant in the room by confirming it meant I didn't find it beyond the realm of believability that they'd let a writer get away with sidelining Shatterstar's sexuality, especially for the duration of a five-issue story, so long as they weren't courting bad press by making it an explicit rollback.

Fair enough; I think I'm with you now. I just tend to get a bit defensive on this particular subject, since I have on several occasions had to correct people that have mistakenly thought that Marvel has retconned away Herc's bisexuality or said that it has never come up again since the Alonso incident, etc. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm 99% sure it was editorial who put Northstar back into "don't say gay" territory since they would have gotten last word on what made it to the page. At the very least, given the content of the story, we have a good indication that editorial at the time wasn't very supportive of an out lead character. But the reason I don't give Furman himself much credit there regardless (even aside from the quality of the story) is because he did nothing not already covered multiple times under Byrne and Mantlo in the previous decade, and none of it was taken any further than what had been done when the alleged ban on gay characters was in effect at Marvel. Nonentity, unconfirmed love interests (Maurice, JP's "special friends") and a multitude of coded insults were already the standard markers for Northstar's homosexuality.

True enough. I just wonder if that's all he was allowed to get away with. He would have been under a tighter microscope than Byrne or Mantlo were, since at that point Northstar's sexuality was official and common knowledge, instead of just subtext that may have slipped past some of the editors without notice.

Instead of unceremoniously killing/shuffling Raul off-stage early on, for example, Furman might have had him be the dear friend from the past Northstar was racing to save from a Parisian death trap for a happy reunion, giving us less telling about how much he meant to JP and more showing.

It would certainly have been an improvement, I agree. But on a side note, do we know that Raul was actually killed? I don't recall seeing any confirmation of that in the story (it was the reporter that was confirmed to be killed), and when Weapon P.R.I.M.E. burst in on him he was still alive and moaning, and their intent was to arrest Northstar not kill him so (presumably) they weren't using lethal force. Not that it makes a ton of difference since no one is likely to revisit him at this stage, especially with JP married now...but I don't think he was actually killed off. If he was, it seems strange that JP never mentioned his death later in the mini, but instead kept talking about the reporter who was killed.

Instead of cementing that there was no romance at all between Raymonde and Northstar by making theirs a father-son relationship, he might have clarified Byrne's ambiguous wording about Northstar's age in the other direction to shore up the subtext of their having been lovers at one point.* That sort of thing would have all still been below sightline, but at least a bit less regressive.

*Not that I'm especially heartbroken at losing out on yet another Byrne May-December relationship, but in context, it's annoying.

Losing the Raymonde/Northstar romance may have been for the best though, since the way the age gap was portrayed at times was dangerously close to reinforcing stereotypes about gays being pedophiles.

But on the whole, yes, that miniseries is most notable for being a collection of missed opportunities.

[Anduinel]

But on a side note, do we know that Raul was actually killed? I don't recall seeing any confirmation of that in the story (it was the reporter that was confirmed to be killed), and when Weapon P.R.I.M.E. burst in on him he was still alive and moaning, and their intent was to arrest Northstar not kill him so (presumably) they weren't using lethal force. Not that it makes a ton of difference since no one is likely to revisit him at this stage, especially with JP married now...but I don't think he was actually killed off. If he was, it seems strange that JP never mentioned his death later in the mini, but instead kept talking about the reporter who was killed.

Unconfirmed one way or the other, hence the either-or slashmark. If it had been a confirmed kill, I'd have used more profanity in my assessment of Furman's writing.

Weapon P.R.I.M.E. wasn't using what would have amounted to lethal force on a super, iirc, but it tore a civvie like Raul up pretty badly. I don't *think* Furman meant to imply that he died, given that he was alive at the end of that scene and the fact that Weapon P.R.I.M.E. were written as... well, a pack of idiot 90's antagonists, but not outright murderous. But Raul doesn't get get a follow-up one way or the other, despite his supposed importance to Northstar, and I've seen people take it the other way, so I'm generally OK calling it an ambiguous read.

Losing the Raymonde/Northstar romance may have been for the best though, since the way the age gap was portrayed at times was dangerously close to reinforcing stereotypes about gays being pedophiles.

It was inconsistent between writers. Byrne's wording was ambiguous (go back a few decades and "hardly more than a boy" means more a youth than an actual child) and Mantlo showed them as meeting when JP was a young adult. It was actually Furman who solidly established Northstar as having been a child when he met Raymonde. But Mantlo's timeline was kinda FUBAR next to Byrne's anyway and, like I said, I'm not exactly crying over someone kicking sand over Byrne's recurring proclivities. It's just looking at it in-line with the whole toothless mess of a story that makes it annoying.

[Anduinel]

In other news, I got a Hulkling support to go with my Wiccan on Marvel Puzzle Quest today:

[Magnito]

In other news, I got a Hulkling support to go with my Wiccan on Marvel Puzzle Quest today:

Hulking stuck as a support eh. Can't say I'm surprised.

[Silvermoth]

In other news, I got a Hulkling support to go with my Wiccan on Marvel Puzzle Quest today:

That’s awesome! I love it when hulkling and Wiccan appear in games!