View Poll Results: Who is your favourite 616 Marvel LGBT character?

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  • ANOLE [Victor Borkowski]

    26 3.58%
  • BLING! [Roxanne ‘Roxy’ Washington]

    12 1.65%
  • CULLEN BLOODSTONE

    20 2.75%
  • DAKEN AKIHIRO

    42 5.79%
  • HULKLING [Theodore ‘Teddy’ Altman]

    35 4.82%
  • KARMA [Xi’an Coy Mahn]

    38 5.23%
  • KAROLINA DEAN

    42 5.79%
  • LOKI LAUFEYSON, God of Mischief

    60 8.26%
  • MOONDRAGON [Heather Douglas]

    38 5.23%
  • MYSTIQUE [Raven Darkholme]

    107 14.74%
  • NORTHSTAR [Jean-Paul Beaubier]

    59 8.13%
  • PRODIGY [David Alleyne]

    21 2.89%
  • RICTOR [Julio Esteban Ricter]

    35 4.82%
  • SHATTERSTAR [Gaveedra-7]

    44 6.06%
  • WICCAN [William ‘Billy’ Kaplan], the Demiurge

    147 20.25%
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  1. #13966
    Astonishing Member MasterOfMagnetism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Well, I did notice the moment, but it didn't really come off as gay to me. I guess my mind just thought of it as normalizing men complimenting other men's beauty, without necessarily any gay innuendos. It's hard to tell, since the Starforce characters, with the exception of Jude Law's character, were so underused and underdeveloped in the movie.
    It's definitely an ambiguous line, but ambiguity is exactly what I expect from movie studios that want to appear progressive but not actually include openly gay characters. And yes, the Starforce characters were completely underused. I'm pretty sure that one line was the only line of dialogue the bearded character had. I still liked the movie overall though.

  2. #13967
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    So, I keep seeing it mentioned that there are legal issues surrounding Eli Bradley...? What happened and why can't I find anything on Google (other than my Google-Fu being way sub-par...)?
    There is no such thing as an ethical Republican anymore. Period.

  3. #13968
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    So, I keep seeing it mentioned that there are legal issues surrounding Eli Bradley...? What happened and why can't I find anything on Google (other than my Google-Fu being way sub-par...)?
    He hasn't been seen since the Children's Crusade back in 2012, and it seems like there's been a deliberate attempt to avoid showing or mentioning him (even an instance of him appearing in a photograph in Age of Ultron had to be redrawn to replace him with America Chavez). The closest we've gotten to any sort of concrete explanation was Kieron Gillen saying his original plan for Young Avengers vol. 2 involved Eli, before he was told by his editors Eli was off-limits. This has extended to other media, as all the recent video game appearances the Young Avengers have made (such as Avengers Academy and Lego Avengers) have used practically everyone from the team except Eli.

    It's never been officially confirmed, but the consensus seems to be there might be legal issues with the character of Isaiah Bradley, whom Eli was spun off from. Adding some credence to this is that Josiah X, another hero who was spun off from Isaiah, has not been seen or mentioned in quite some time either, nor has Isaiah himself.
    Last edited by Holt; 04-20-2019 at 04:38 PM.

  4. #13969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    He hasn't been seen since the Children's Crusade back in 2012, and it seems like there's been a deliberate attempt to avoid showing or mentioning him (even an instance of him appearing in a photograph in Age of Ultron had to be redrawn to replace him with America Chavez). The closest we've gotten to any sort of concrete explanation was Kieron Gillen saying his original plan for Young Avengers vol. 2 involved Eli, before he was told by his editors Eli was off-limits. This has extended to other media, as all the recent video game appearances the Young Avengers have made (such as Avengers Academy and Lego Avengers) have used practically everyone from the team except Eli.

    It's never been officially confirmed, but the consensus seems to be there might be legal issues with the character of Isaiah Bradley, whom Eli was spun off from. Adding some credence to this is that Josiah X, another hero who was spun off from Isaiah, has not been seen or mentioned in quite some time either, nor has Isaiah himself.
    In fairness, was Josiah X ever mentioned outside of The Crew?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, this whole thing baffles me. There is clearly some sort of legal issue going on, but how the hell did that happen? Every element of the Truth mini relies on Marvel canon and Isaiah Bradley is an entirely human character (not like say, Hellboy or Nightcrawler).

    Did Marvel just not bother with a basic contract or something?

  5. #13970
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    So, someone published a paper on Wiccan and Hulkling being a ''homonormative'' couple, which sounds like... an interesting concept, to say the least.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...er_performance

    I requested the full text and they said I might get it from e-mail. Not sure if I'm getting it, but I'm interested in reading it. Either way, it's pretty cool that someone out there thought they were relevant enough to be the subject of this kind of publication.

  6. #13971
    Extraordinary Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    LOL. Just from reading this description or whatever it is, I find this dumb. And wouldn't it be heteronormative? I don't think this concept is something that you can just put hetero or homo in front of the normative based on what kind of relationship it is... Cause it's about heteronormative concepts supposedly being applied to gay characters. Well I don't really know lol.

  7. #13972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    What did they retcon?
    Her mother was a good charitable person. She became a vampire
    And Kate(?) doesn't have "real connections to other Avengers".
    She works with them now...but all of them do or have.
    Exactly. None of this stuff about her family changes who Kate is as a character -- it just adds new elements to her backstory and to her supporting cast/rogues gallery.

    Honestly, the biggest thing that has changed Kate since the early YA days was when she stopped living off her father's money and had to start making her way on her own. That was a huge status quo shift for a character who grew up rich (and in the early days of the YA was the Tony Stark/Janet Van Dyne member of the group providing funding and resources).

    Now she was living on her own, struggling to make ends meet, etc. That is what turned Kate's world upside down and started the character developing into new directions. I'll be honest that I do sometimes miss 'rich Kate', but I still love her as the new Kate that has developed along the way. She is still the same person at the core--but like any young adult she has started to change and grow in some new ways.

  8. #13973
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    LOL. Just from reading this description or whatever it is, I find this dumb. And wouldn't it be heteronormative? I don't think this concept is something that you can just put hetero or homo in front of the normative based on what kind of relationship it is... Cause it's about heteronormative concepts supposedly being applied to gay characters. Well I don't really know lol.
    Well, if you look at the definition of homonormativity, you can see where the author was coming from. The references for the paper also include other work that uses the same word, so it was probably very intentional. I didn't even know that was an actual word people used, but I understand why they do. I don't even necessarily agree with the premise of the paper, but it IS an opinion I've seen other people sharing in fandom, so, like I said, I'm interested in reading what someone has to write about it on a literal academic level.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 04-20-2019 at 10:25 PM.

  9. #13974
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    So, someone published a paper on Wiccan and Hulkling being a ''homonormative'' couple, which sounds like... an interesting concept, to say the least.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...er_performance

    I requested the full text and they said I might get it from e-mail. Not sure if I'm getting it, but I'm interested in reading it. Either way, it's pretty cool that someone out there thought they were relevant enough to be the subject of this kind of publication.
    I'd be interested in reading the full thing. Right off the bat, I think I'd dispute the idea that Wiccan being femmey made him more acceptable to straight readers. On the contrary, I've seen a lot of straight readers make the claim that they prefer gay characters who "aren't so in your face about being gay" a number of times. I.E., I've seen people lament the late Freedom Ring for supposedly being more of a "man's man" than a typical gay superhero, even though that's somewhat debatable in itself.

  10. #13975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    I'd be interested in reading the full thing. Right off the bat, I think I'd dispute the idea that Wiccan being femmey made him more acceptable to straight readers.
    I feel like whoever designed the look and feel for Hulkling and Wiccan did a pretty cool job of mixing that up, actually. Wiccan gets cast as 'the girl' of the couple (which is pretty heteronormative in itself, to assume that one of them has to take a female role, when both are dudes). Visually, Teddy seems to have more superficially 'female' traits like sculpted hair and face jewelry (and shows more skin, in comics traditionally for the ladies, and Namor....), than Billy, who has, IMO, a more, shall we say, 'thrown together' look. A focus on his appearance is even part of his backstory with his friend exploiting his ability to change his appearance. Most relevantly, which one drives the story, and which one stands behind and more or less 'supports her man?' It's almost always Billy driving the story, while Teddy is, at best, in the passenger seat, holding the map.

    Looking at the two of them, a straight perspective might automatically assume that the bigger beefier one is the 'butch' and the shorter slimmer one is the 'femme,' but a closer reading of their appearances would suggest that Billy's the 'dude' and Teddy's the 'girlfriend.' (Then again, this could just be a side-effect of Billy getting so much more focus than Teddy that it sometimes comes off as Billy is the protagonist and Teddy is little more than 'the protagonist's girlfriend...')

    Ideally, they should be more evenly splitting the focus. (And any argument about whether or not one of them *should* be taking on a femme role in a gay relationship or if that's too 'heteronormative' or even subtly oppressive or whatever, imposing girl+guy relationship standards on a guy+guy relationship is a bit out of my depth.)

  11. #13976
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I feel like whoever designed the look and feel for Hulkling and Wiccan did a pretty cool job of mixing that up, actually. Wiccan gets cast as 'the girl' of the couple (which is pretty heteronormative in itself, to assume that one of them has to take a female role, when both are dudes). Visually, Teddy seems to have more superficially 'female' traits like sculpted hair and face jewelry (and shows more skin, in comics traditionally for the ladies, and Namor....), than Billy, who has, IMO, a more, shall we say, 'thrown together' look. A focus on his appearance is even part of his backstory with his friend exploiting his ability to change his appearance. Most relevantly, which one drives the story, and which one stands behind and more or less 'supports her man?' It's almost always Billy driving the story, while Teddy is, at best, in the passenger seat, holding the map.

    Looking at the two of them, a straight perspective might automatically assume that the bigger beefier one is the 'butch' and the shorter slimmer one is the 'femme,' but a closer reading of their appearances would suggest that Billy's the 'dude' and Teddy's the 'girlfriend.' (Then again, this could just be a side-effect of Billy getting so much more focus than Teddy that it sometimes comes off as Billy is the protagonist and Teddy is little more than 'the protagonist's girlfriend...')

    Ideally, they should be more evenly splitting the focus. (And any argument about whether or not one of them *should* be taking on a femme role in a gay relationship or if that's too 'heteronormative' or even subtly oppressive or whatever, imposing girl+guy relationship standards on a guy+guy relationship is a bit out of my depth.)
    Very well said!

  12. #13977
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    So, someone published a paper on Wiccan and Hulkling being a ''homonormative'' couple, which sounds like... an interesting concept, to say the least.
    I can totally see this....

  13. #13978
    Mighty Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    He hasn't been seen since the Children's Crusade back in 2012, and it seems like there's been a deliberate attempt to avoid showing or mentioning him (even an instance of him appearing in a photograph in Age of Ultron had to be redrawn to replace him with America Chavez). The closest we've gotten to any sort of concrete explanation was Kieron Gillen saying his original plan for Young Avengers vol. 2 involved Eli, before he was told by his editors Eli was off-limits. This has extended to other media, as all the recent video game appearances the Young Avengers have made (such as Avengers Academy and Lego Avengers) have used practically everyone from the team except Eli.

    It's never been officially confirmed, but the consensus seems to be there might be legal issues with the character of Isaiah Bradley, whom Eli was spun off from. Adding some credence to this is that Josiah X, another hero who was spun off from Isaiah, has not been seen or mentioned in quite some time either, nor has Isaiah himself.
    Jeremy Whitley, writing of the Unstoppable Wasp series, tweeted this a few months back which basically confirms that there is a legal issue

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jrome58/s...11774156066817

  14. #13979
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Well said, Sutekh.

    The discussion / debate on the subject of masc vs femm -- specifically when applied to my most favorite Marvel couple -- is fascinating and you bring up really excellent behavioral points (Billy being thrown together vs Teddy making deliberate aesthetic decisions, etc) that I believe often go unrecognized.

    Its so easy/simple for viewers to make casual assumptions based around size alone. Teddy is large and thereby represents strength and strength represents masculinity. Additionally the subconscious inevitable connective tissue of his name being tied to the HULK, and comparably Billy is linked intrinsically to the Scarlet Witch. Masculine energy vs Feminine energy. Punching vs. Magic.

    Its all very fascinating. Doubly so when we find ourselves applying our own life experience to those assessments.

  15. #13980
    Spectacular Member Alphaxman's Avatar
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    What's everyone's opinion on Northstar's marriage? I know most don't like Kyle, mainly because of his perceived neediness or selfish behavior. But my problem wasn't with Kyle per-se, I just think it's hard for any superhero relationship, regardless of sexuality, to seem interesting when one of the lover is a non-hero. Double with the fact that despite being the first, Northstar is C-list hero who is barely on the team and is not popular enough to have his own series.
    I would have rather see Jean-Paul unmarried and gotten closer with Bobby -- not so they would get together romantically, but for Jean-Paul to be that friend Bobby needed when handling his self-acceptance. Maybe after a few years of tight friendship then maybe a relationship.


    Another question: Who else is pissed that Mystique hasn't had a relationship, sexual or otherwise, with another woman since the death of her one true love, Irene? Everyone knew Claremont made it perfectly clear those two were in a relationship, but every writer since has couple Raven with men, from Logan, Gambit, to even Bobby of all people.

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