LGBT+ Marvel Characters Discussion

[Kieran_Frost]

Everyone should read the OP (esp. the highlighted part): this is an APPRECIATION thread, if you are not appreciating then this is not the place for you.

Mystique had a romantic relationship with a woman for the better part of a century. They raised a daughter together. The idea that she doesn't count as queer is insulting as hell.

Oh, don't be silly. If a character appears in 1980, confirmed as gay in the first line... then 30 years later we've never again heard any reference to it, would people class that as a "prominent"? I don't think so. Mystique has never been specifically outed. We know she had a relationship with Destiny, but the details are sketchy at best (i.e. was any "consummation" only when she was in male forum?). Which is why we all are so EXCITED for the upcoming Death of Wolverine issue that will ACTUALLY explore this and talk about it and (for once) not shy away from the issue.

You need to read the awesome link Chrys provided last page: http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4401243.html. And that's pretty much it. I mean... come on. Divide those scans by the number of appearances in comics? She had a 24 issues solo series (never mentioned). She's listed as having 380 appearances (http://marvel.wikia.com/Raven_Darkholme_%28Earth-616%29). And her LGBT status is a footnote; with a handful of scans, none of which actually confirm she was LGBT. That IS NOT "prominent" by any stretch of the imagination.

Now, I'm not someone who doesn't "count" her as LGBT. Someone doesn't need to spell it out "I am gay" for it to count. From the implications and subtext (extremely limited, though they maybe), it's clear she is LGBT. I originally didn't like to count her solo series as the first LGBT solo series, but I was educated about it by Dermie (thanks D ), and that was a very good learning curve (because we must never forget vital steps in acceptance, no matter how "small" they may seem in the future). She is LGBT. But she is not prominent LGBT. She just isn't. Anymore than Living Lighting or Herc are "prominent LGBT." One line does not prominent make.

In real life who is more prominent LGBT: Gillian Anderson or Sue Perkins? Tom Hardy or Ezra Miller? Angelina Jolie or George Takai?

[JaggedFel]

Lol once again ur not a mod. I am saying Fox's X-men dont deserve a free pass just because they because Old Magneto is played by a gay actor and the Producer/Director is Gay. They have plenty of movies, plenty of team movies to show some gay X-men and have failed to do so. Fox X-men and MCU should get held to the same standard in terms of actual characters.

Graymalkin is never go to be a major character in comics or on the screen at least pick a realistic character.

[Kieran_Frost]

230

I am saying Fox's X-men dont deserve a free pass just because they because Old Magneto is played by a gay actor and the Producer/Director is Gay. They have plenty of movies, plenty of team movies to show some gay X-men and have failed to do so. Fox X-men and MCU should get held to the same standard in terms of actual characters.

*le sigh*
Fox X-men on screen gay characters = 0
MCU on screen gay characters = 0
Fox X-men championing gay rights in the mutant metaphor = many, many moments
MCU champion gay rights in a metaphor = 0
Fox X-films directed by someone openly LGBT = 3 (soon to be 4)
MCU films directed by someone openly LGBT = 0
Openly LGBT actors in Fox X-films = 4 (McKellan, Paige, Paquin, Cummings)
Openly LGBT actors in MCU = 0

No-one is "letting the X-verse off the hook" but it's clear where the MASSIVE failing is; and it ain't with Fox. Should the X-men have an openly LGBT character? Hell yes, we talk about it a lot in this thread. We want that! But do they "get a pass" more than MCU because of their pro-LGBT themes, openly LGBT actors, openly LGBT directors = HELL YES!!! 7 vs 0. Numbers don't lie.

P.S. don't forget to vote in the threads poll.

Graymalkin is never go to be a major character in comics or on the screen at least pick a realistic character.

[Beetle]

First of all, this took a five second google search to find.

Everyone should read the OP (esp. the highlighted part): this is an APPRECIATION thread, if you are not appreciating then this is not the place for you.

Nope. This is not hate, this is criticism. There is a difference. You have no authority to shut down a valid discussion about these characters.

It was not one line. It was years and dozens of instances of Mystique calling Destiny her beloved, talking about her as the most meaningful relationship in her life. I know that many current readers only started reading comics in the 2000s and rely on the internet for their information

Did you notice that of the real life LGBT you listed all of the less prominent were all bisexual?

[Wiccan615]

Since many of the LGBT characters are unknown (most of the characters on the above poll are like D List characters for example) Mystique automatically becomes the most "known" LGBT character inherently because she's the only A-List.

The thing is many LGBT readers dismiss her because she's rarely ever shown being interested in the same sex and that's obviously a big part of what makes us who we are/different from society/unique etc, etc and if that part of a character is announced but never shown, it becomes sort of forgotten, if that makes sense? Mystique is a well known character, but many people don't know or never experienced her relationship with Destiny on panel so they dismiss that part of her. But because she is LGBT and is a prominent character, by definition she is a prominent LGBT character, just not one many recall as LGBT.

As for the MCU having an LGBT character....I truly hope one day they do. As a kid who grew up loving super heroes and used them to escape the pains of my reality...it would be a dream come true to see an openly LGBT hero. But we're long ways away. I mean we're getting our first mainline POC hero since Blade and first solo female since Elektra. I think we'll get it some day, but there's still a ton of progress to be made unfortunately since ppl are still very hateful and ignorant and would dismiss an entire character, story or movie because the main character isn't straight. I hope we do get one some day soon though, no doubt that seeing an openly LGBT hero on screen would fulfill a lot of dreams and give a lot of LGBT youth hope.

[Kieran_Frost]

Just watching how giddy he got watching "How to Get Away with Murder" when they showed the gay sex scene made me happy. Not that a 17 year old liked the sex scene, but because it was shown on Network TV, ABC by the way, which is owned by Disney, who just happens to own Marvel.

I've recorded the first episode to watch; love Viola Davis. But it's finding time; doing two series of American Horror Story and the Blacklist as my "new shows"

We don't actively look for it, neither does he. He was happy when the Northstar wedding took place. He is only 17 and has been out the last 3 years. We actually called him out when the scene was happening to show him and he and we, thought it was cool and how great it was that it was there, then he said, this is boring and went back to playing XBOX. Same the last night when we watch the next episode, we were like it's happening again!!! he came out and said the same thing, only this time he added, Oh, it's the same guys.
I think as parents we want more of this to be in society, but at the same time we don't want to make too big deal about it because to us, we see 2 people loving each other etc. That's what we want it to be and not something out of the ordinary so we try to make it ordinary for him. yes this was a big deal because it's network TV and something I had not seen on Network TV. To him, it's just like watching HBO so he's ambivalent.
As for the MCU, he is happy watching Thor, Capt shirtless but would a NorthStar appearance make a difference? Nope, because it's not Poison Ivy (His favorite) or Catwoman (his Second) or Jean Grey(His third). And if they were Lesbians he would attribute it to male fantasies.

***Added***
Though the ONLY reason he watches Green Lantern is to see Ryan Reynolds, his future husband, shirtless. So I guess he is ok with all the Beefcake, he is an adolescent boy...

This whole story made me smile. You sound like amazingly supportive parents. Far more parents of LGBT kids should be just like you.

Since many of the LGBT characters are unknown (most of the characters on the above poll are like D List characters for example) Mystique automatically becomes the most "known" LGBT character inherently because she's the only A-List.

The thing is many LGBT readers dismiss her because she's rarely ever shown being interested in the same sex and that's obviously a big part of what makes us who we are/different from society/unique etc, etc and if that part of a character is announced but never shown, it becomes sort of forgotten, if that makes sense? Mystique is a well known character, but many people don't know or never experienced her relationship with Destiny on panel so they dismiss that part of her. But because she is LGBT and is a prominent character, by definition she is a prominent LGBT character, just not one many recall as LGBT.

I really want to move away from this, because I fear it's bringing negativity into an appreciation thread; but hopefully we can keep our cool and stay positive in our defense (as you have). For me personally, I think there is a massive difference between "prominent character who happens to be LGBT" and "prominent LGBT character". One is not a footnote; and that matters. Diveristy where diversity is never mentioned is pretty poor diversity. It's akin to Hickman's "one of them is LGBT, but it'll probably never be mentioned". In theory (due to readership) whoever this LGBT Avenger is, is more "prominent" (in terms of readers knowing who they are) over Graymalkin. So does this unnamed Avenger count as a "more prominent LGBT" character than Graymalkin???

I mean, to the greater world (with your logic) the "most prominent LGBT characters" are Constantine, Loki and Mystique. How depressing...

[Andru]

Overall I'd have to agree with Kieran (besides Graymalkin )...

Mystique is clearly very popular. On the list on the first page, she is arguably the most popular character next to Loki. However, she isn't popular because of her LGBT status. She is popular because she has appeared in 5 movies & has had a pretty big push since 2000. Yes, she is an LGBT character, but it is barely emphasized.

Now take a character like Northstar whose LGBT status is heavily emphasized. People who don't even follow Marvel or comics could tell you Northstar is gay. Hell, the only time Northstar has ever gotten any type of "outside promotion" was when he married another man. The fact is, Northstar is easily recognized and celebrated as an LGBT character.

Yes, Mystique may be more popular, but Northstar is the more prominent LGBT character.

[Kieran_Frost]

Overall I'd have to agree with Kieran (besides Graymalkin )...

Mystique is clearly very popular. On the list on the first page, she is arguably the most popular character next to Loki. However, she isn't popular because of her LGBT status. She is popular because she has appeared in 5 movies & has had a pretty big push since 2000. Yes, she is an LGBT character, but it is barely emphasized.

Now take a character like Northstar whose LGBT status is heavily emphasized. People who don't even follow Marvel or comics could tell you Northstar is gay. Hell, the only time Northstar has ever gotten any type of "outside promotion" was when he married another man. The fact is, Northstar is easily recognized and celebrated as an LGBT character.

Yes, Mystique may be more popular, but Northstar is the more prominent LGBT character.

YEY!!! I'm not alone. I get why some don't like Graymalkin, and I do agree almost all we know of him is he's gay and old (because, outside that one issue in Young X-men, no-ones really done anything with him; though he does still appear at the JGS on occasions, but even then his dialogue is sparse). And I'd love to see Marvel take Mystique, an LGBT character they already have, and really go for it; making the first true LGBT A-lister. But they haven't right now; and it's silly to pretend otherwise. Her sexuality (when it comes to women) is a footnote almost no writer touches. She's been a major foe in numerous comics for a long time, and we have canon evidence her and Destiny were lovers from other people, but never her. How does she feel about her sexuality? We have no idea. Is she bi? Is she trans? Is she straight with an asterix. Who knows? Hopefully that will be cleared up very, very soon.

[NewMutant]

There is no prominent gay character and that is the problem. Northstar is the most prominent but he is hardly popular or not A-List.

[Beetle]

I really want to move away from this, because I fear it's bringing negativity into an appreciation thread; but hopefully we can keep our cool and stay positive in our defense (as you have). For me personally, I think there is a massive difference between "prominent character who happens to be LGBT" and "prominent LGBT character". One is not a footnote; and that matters. Diveristy where diversity is never mentioned is pretty poor diversity. It's akin to Hickman's "one of them is LGBT, but it'll probably never be mentioned". In theory (due to readership) whoever this LGBT Avenger is, is more "prominent" (in terms of readers knowing who they are) over Graymalkin. So does this unnamed Avenger count as a "more prominent LGBT" character than Graymalkin???

I mean, to the greater world (with your logic) the "most prominent LGBT characters" are Constantine, Loki and Mystique. How depressing...

YEY!!! I'm not alone. I get why some don't like Graymalkin, and I do agree almost all we know of him is he's gay and old (because, outside that one issue in Young X-men, no-ones really done anything with him; though he does still appear at the JGS on occasions, but even then his dialogue is sparse). And I'd love to see Marvel take Mystique, an LGBT character they already have, and really go for it; making the first true LGBT A-lister. But they haven't right now; and it's silly to pretend otherwise. Her sexuality (when it comes to women) is a footnote almost no writer touches. She's been a major foe in numerous comics for a long time, and we have canon evidence her and Destiny were lovers from other people, but never her. How does she feel about her sexuality? We have no idea. Is she bi? Is she trans? Is she straight with an asterix. Who knows? Hopefully that will be cleared up very, very soon.

Again, why do you keep singling out the bisexuals for not being queer enough?

I don't see nearly this much scrutiny over monosexual characters. Anole has been out as gay for years but he's never examined what being gay really means to him. Same with Wiccan and Hulkling, there's never been a discussion from them about how it makes them feel. And we never question the thousands of straight characters

But for some reason bisexuals have to prove themselves, otherwise they are too straight to belong.

The fact that we know that Mystique is queer is what makes her different from Hickman's hypothetical LGBT Avenger.

[Kieran_Frost]

There is no prominent gay character and that is the problem. Northstar is the most prominent but he is hardly popular or not A-List.

It's sad, isn't it. I'd say the five most prominent LGBT characters currently would be:
1. Northstar
2. Wiccan&Hulkling
3. Daken
4. Anole
5. Prodigy

X-verse wins! AGAIN!

Again, why do you keep singling out the bisexuals for not being queer enough?
But for some reason bisexuals have to prove themselves, otherwise they are too straight to belong.
The fact that we know that Mystique is queer is what makes her different from Hickman's hypothetical LGBT Avenger.

Oh don't be silly, this has nothing to do with "singling out the bi characters". You're making a storm in a teacup. It's not my fault that coincidently the three most famous characters (who happen to be LGBT) are bisexual. I didn't write the characters, nor push them to fame, nor decide they should be bisexual rather than gay.

Daken, Prodigy, Moondragon; all bisexual, all with excellent examples of their sexuality not just being a footnote in a panel and nothing more. I'm a massive Daken fan. So stop this ludicrous attempt to make this into an agenda against bi characters. Because it's so plainly not.

Anole has been out as gay for years but he's never examined what being gay really means to him. Same with Wiccan and Hulkling, there's never been a discussion from them about how it makes them feel.

Anole has discussed it, in the one-shot with Northstar where he ran away, when he was outed, when he talked to Graymalkin, and in many moments with Rockslide. His sexuality is not a footnote. And you can't seriously be trying to argue Wiccan&Hulkling's sexuality isn't examined? REALLY?

And we never question the thousands of straight characters

Straight privilege. Hence why it's important to have sexuality explored, because everyone (even LGBT characters) are assume straight. Many, MANY fans assume and think of Constantine as straight.

[Beetle]

It's sad, isn't it. I'd say the five most prominent LGBT characters currently would be:
1. Northstar
2. Wiccan&Hulkling
3. Daken
4. Anole
5. Prodigy

X-verse wins! AGAIN!


Oh don't be silly, this has nothing to do with "singling out the bi characters". You're making a storm in a teacup. It's not my fault that coincidently the three most famous characters (who happen to be LGBT) are bisexual. I didn't write the characters, nor push them to fame, nor decide they should be bisexual rather than gay.

Daken, Prodigy, Moondragon; all bisexual, all with excellent examples of their sexuality not just being a footnote in a panel and nothing more. I'm a massive Daken fan. So stop this ludicrous attempt to make this into an agenda against bi characters. Because it's so plainly not.


Anole has discussed it, in the one-shot with Northstar where he ran away, when he was outed, when he talked to Graymalkin, and in many moments with Rockslide. His sexuality is not a footnote. And you can't seriously be trying to argue Wiccan&Hulkling's sexuality isn't examined? REALLY?


Straight privilege. Hence why it's important to have sexuality explored, because everyone (even LGBT characters) are assume straight. Many, MANY fans assume and think of Constantine as straight.

I don't think you even realize it (or you don't want to examine your own hypocrisy), but you also singled out the bisexual celebrities Gillian Anderson, Tom Hardy and Angelina Jolie. It's becoming a pattern.

You keep minimalizing Mystique's relationship with Destiny to a "footnote". I know that some of the books involving their relationship were made before you were born stop acting as if

Anole did not discuss being gay in the Divided We Stand oneshot. When he was outed he didn't say anything about what it means to him (which is what you wanted Mystique to do). And which moments with Rockslide? It's a "footnote" in the same way that Mystique's sexuality and relationship with Destiny is a "footnote". The fact that you know that he's queer changes the way that you read him and his interactions with other characters.

And yes I am saying that Wiccan and Hulkling's sexualities aren't examined, at least not to the same degree you seem to want bisexual characters like Mystique or Psylocke to examine their own.

How is saying that Mystique's relationship with Destiny is a footnote and isn't good enough to call her a prominent LGBT character any better than assuming that she's straight?

[Kieran_Frost]

I don't think you even realize it (or you don't want to examine your own hypocrisy), but you also singled out the bisexual celebrities Gillian Anderson, Tom Hardy and Angelina Jolie. It's becoming a pattern.

You keep minimalizing Mystique's relationship with Destiny to a "footnote". I know that some of the books involving their relationship were made before you were born stop acting as if

Anole did not discuss being gay in the Divided We Stand oneshot. When he was outed he didn't say anything about what it means to him (which is what you wanted Mystique to do). And which moments with Rockslide? It's a "footnote" in the same way that Mystique's sexuality and relationship with Destiny is a "footnote". The fact that you know that he's queer changes the way that you read him and his interactions with other characters.

And yes I am saying that Wiccan and Hulkling's sexualities aren't examined, at least not to the same degree you seem to want bisexual characters like Mystique or Psylocke to examine their own.

How is saying that Mystique's relationship with Destiny is a footnote and isn't good enough to call her a prominent LGBT character any better than assuming that she's straight?

Oh sweet Jesus! I'm done debating this with you. I want to keep this thread positive; and discussing any of this with you will only result in more outlandish accusations. If you want to think I have an agenda against bi people, be my guest. Lol!

[Beetle]

Oh sweet Jesus! I'm done debating this with you. If you want to think I have an agenda against bi people, be my guest. Lol! What a ridiculous accusation! Smh.

I think that you are symptomatic of the deep seated biphobia in the LG community, especially when it comes to fandoms. The fact that you are gay does not mean that you are immune to criticism.

[legion_quest]

I think that you are symptomatic of the deep seated biphobia in the LG community, especially when it comes to fandoms. The fact that you are gay does not mean that you are immune to criticism.

I dont think it has anything to do with biphobia, and more that the whole relationship with Destiny has been footnoted by writer after writer who hasn't confirmed it, explored it or even brought up Mystique's sexuality again as a story point outside of straight relationships.

Calling that fact, and adding up that it equates to Mystique's bisexuality being questionable seen as we've only been told of her having one relationship with a female, does not equal biphobia, and if anything, highlights another oft forgotten section of the spectrum of sexuality, those who are just curious/questioning/one offers, who will go with one person of the same sex, but then never again.

My first boyfriend, he's like that, went out with me for 5 mths when we were 16/17 and when we ended, has never ever slept with a man again and identifies as straight, not bi.