Talia Al Ghul Appreciation

[batalia]

She first appeared in Detective Comics 411 in May 1971. She is created by Dennis O'neil, Bob Brown and Dick Giordano.
I think her best portrayal out of the comics was in Batman the animated series. Her worst in Dark Knight Rises. Worst Portrayal in the comics has been by Grant Morrison in Batman Inc Saga. I loved that he had her take over her father's empire but he stripped any complexity she had as a character and his Talia is more of a caricature.

Lets Hope that she comes back better than ever hopefully with Damian's return.

My favorite fan art of her.

[Penguin Truth]

I can appreciate the Pre-Morrison version of her, but after she became a mass-murdering rapist, not so much.

Denny O'Neil, if only you were still active.

[batalia]

I wish there was a writer who loved her at DC. She needs someone to advocate for her and her fans. I get the feeling that DC doesn't give shit about her. Otherwise, they wouldn't have let Morrison ruin her. I don't take they would let Catwoman be written like that because they value that character for example.
That rape stuff was the most unnecessary nonsensical thing ever. They just need to stop.

[Penguin Truth]

Well, let's face it. Most people loved Morrison's run, and writers are probably afraid to retcon or change anything he established. Even the horrible things (pretty much all of it, for my tastes, but hey, I'm in the minority). Morrison was seen as a huge "get" and his stories are sixty to seventy percent of all Batman trades on the shelves today.

Not to mention, Talia was already kind of "ruined" in Death and the Maidens. But at least that was brainwashing by her evil sister who was killed off-panel by a brainwashed Cassie, who was brainwashed because Deathstroke was evil that day.

Comics are weird.

[darkseidpwns]

I wish there was a writer who loved her at DC. She needs someone to advocate for her and her fans. I get the feeling that DC doesn't give shit about her. Otherwise, they wouldn't have let Morrison ruin her. I don't take they would let Catwoman be written like that because they value that character for example.
That rape stuff was the most unnecessary nonsensical thing ever. They just need to stop.

I should mention that DC is taking a similar route with Catwoman,Batman Eternal,Batman 28,Catwoman Futures End tie inn. They are building her up to be a major criminal,Snyder keeps calling her the Wilson Fisk of Gotham,yeah I know subtlety is lost when it comes to him.

[batalia]

My issue with Morrison wasn't that he made her a villain. In fact, I wanted a story where Talia finally says f u to Batman and her father and take charge. Is the fact that there was no complexity to her and she was portrayed as a caricature. Is the fact that her history wasn't respected.

I somehow don't think that Catwoman will go through the same. I think that she will be handled well and get to keep some complexity.

[Black Angel]

i still love talia but dang she is an awful mom poor damian, she even referred to her grief when he died as a moment of weakness my god man thats cold.

[t hedge coke]

I can appreciate the Pre-Morrison version of her, but after she became a mass-murdering rapist, not so much.

Talia's been involved in mass murder since her inception. She's been running the show on it, herself, since at least the bombing of Bludhaven.

And, I don't think we've seen her post-Morrison, have we?

Still, I get what you mean, in the broad sense, even if I don't agree. Prior to the 21st Century there was a tendency to give her more leeway because sometimes she'd help the hero (when it benefitted her) and she was someone's daughter, which mean she couldn't possibly be held accountable for her actions or life choices. I think Talia did, actually, benefit from that kind of audience-perspective, because it made her seem "not as bad" or "not as dangerous," the same way Harley can kidnap, torture, murder, and be complicit with one multiple murderer (Joker) after another (Ivy) without seeming "that bad," because she's cute, y'know, and seems the lesser of two evils.

I think Rucka-forward has been good for her, but it was sure to turn off some classic-Talia fans the same way acknowledging how messed up and evil Harley can be would some of her fanbase. Still, to me, worth it to see her really rock the world as a massive and influential villain. I like her better when she's running a global crime empire, conquering cities, decimating her enemies, than when she's "that poor woman living like a queen off ill-gotten gains all because her daddy was evil and as an adult she has no way to just go straight." Once you're complicit in massive genocide or global drug and chemical weapons trade, I say just go whole hog and be the supervillain.

[jump]

Meh, the whole drugged Bats thing was a bit unnecessary otherwise I have no problem with the Morrison version and like t hedge said much better it's about time she got off the fence and decided if she was a goody or a baddie.

Was the "drug" ever explained as in was it a roofie or viagra?

[t hedge coke]

Was the "drug" ever explained as in was it a roofie or viagra?

The drugged thing was just a memory lapse that the editor didn't catch. In any case, we see more of that in Inc vol 2, and we can't be sure what she put in, because he's also a) weary for everything else and b) has consumed alcohol, which really isn't something he's going to be used to.

In context, "I remember being drugged into a depraved eugenics experiment" sounds like a lot of projecting from Batman, who can't deal with how attracted he is to Talia, but also, "depraved eugenics experiment" is pretty apt and something that, sometimes, gets too overlooked.

[Punisher007]

What Morrison did was to remove any kind of complexity/ambiguity from her. He just turned her into a two-dimensional mustache-twirling psych, how very boring/uninteresting. He also made her motives even MORE petty than they were before. Also, the "drugging" thing was so unnecessary. There was no reason why her hookup with Batman couldn't have been consensual and then still had everyone else play out the same way. Another writer at DC needs to fix her at some point.

[The Kid]

Talia is generally one of my favorite characters in the Batman universe. I love her as a love interest of Bruce, both temporary and as the "one" (BTAS, Arkham games). That said, I also liked her descent to full-on villain recently.

What should they use Talia for now that Damian is back? An archenemy to him? Or should they make her more of a gray character who walks the line between anti-hero and villain.

One thing I do hope they do is retcon the fact that she drugged Bruce. That just annoys me. I'd prefer if she poked a hole in his condom or Bruce just didn't pull out or something like that. Never been a fan of that tidbit

[M L A]

Well given what happened at the end of Robin Rises Alpha or whenever that was, most of what she did will be ignored unless its a OMG BRUCE AND DAMIAN ARE SO CONFLICTED ABOUT IT thing going on.

[t hedge coke]

One thing I do hope they do is retcon the fact that she drugged Bruce. That just annoys me. I'd prefer if she poked a hole in his condom or Bruce just didn't pull out or something like that. Never been a fan of that tidbit

Bruce said she drugged him, but what we see in Inc was that she probably did give him something to loosen inhibitions but he was also drinking, something he doesn't really do and probably has low tolerance for. Most of "you drugged me" seemed to be a years later annoyance with himself that he slept with a career global criminal.

I'm not sure, though, that Talia being a rapist and having drugged Batman once is all that worse than her profiting off assassinations, terrorism, biological warfare, drug running, human trafficking, extortion, etc.

[GoingPostal]

The drugs thing always sounded to me like Bat pulling some sad excuses. Yeah, sure, you took some stuff, drunk even more, we all been there. Now be a big boy and assume what you did lol.

But it sure fits Talia's character i think, she wants something, she does whatever in her power to get it. Even some drugs why not.