Talia Al Ghul Appreciation

[batalia]

She first appeared in Detective Comics 411 in May 1971. She is created by Dennis O'neil, Bob Brown and Dick Giordano.
I think her best portrayal out of the comics was in Batman the animated series. Her worst in Dark Knight Rises. Worst Portrayal in the comics has been by Grant Morrison in Batman Inc Saga. I loved that he had her take over her father's empire but he stripped any complexity she had as a character and his Talia is more of a caricature.

Lets Hope that she comes back better than ever hopefully with Damian's return.

My favorite fan art of her.

[Penguin Truth]

I can appreciate the Pre-Morrison version of her, but after she became a mass-murdering rapist, not so much.

Denny O'Neil, if only you were still active.

[batalia]

I wish there was a writer who loved her at DC. She needs someone to advocate for her and her fans. I get the feeling that DC doesn't give **** about her. Otherwise, they wouldn't have let Morrison ruin her. I don't take they would let Catwoman be written like that because they value that character for example.
That rape stuff was the most unnecessary nonsensical thing ever. They just need to stop.

[Penguin Truth]

Well, let's face it. Most people loved Morrison's run, and writers are probably afraid to retcon or change anything he established. Even the horrible things (pretty much all of it, for my tastes, but hey, I'm in the minority). Morrison was seen as a huge "get" and his stories are sixty to seventy percent of all Batman trades on the shelves today.

Not to mention, Talia was already kind of "ruined" in Death and the Maidens. But at least that was brainwashing by her evil sister who was killed off-panel by a brainwashed Cassie, who was brainwashed because Deathstroke was evil that day.

Comics are weird.

[t hedge coke]

I can appreciate the Pre-Morrison version of her, but after she became a mass-murdering rapist, not so much.

Talia's been involved in mass murder since her inception. She's been running the show on it, herself, since at least the bombing of Bludhaven.

And, I don't think we've seen her post-Morrison, have we?

Still, I get what you mean, in the broad sense, even if I don't agree. Prior to the 21st Century there was a tendency to give her more leeway because sometimes she'd help the hero (when it benefitted her) and she was someone's daughter, which mean she couldn't possibly be held accountable for her actions or life choices. I think Talia did, actually, benefit from that kind of audience-perspective, because it made her seem "not as bad" or "not as dangerous," the same way Harley can kidnap, torture, murder, and be complicit with one multiple murderer (Joker) after another (Ivy) without seeming "that bad," because she's cute, y'know, and seems the lesser of two evils.

I think Rucka-forward has been good for her, but it was sure to turn off some classic-Talia fans the same way acknowledging how messed up and evil Harley can be would some of her fanbase. Still, to me, worth it to see her really rock the world as a massive and influential villain. I like her better when she's running a global crime empire, conquering cities, decimating her enemies, than when she's "that poor woman living like a queen off ill-gotten gains all because her daddy was evil and as an adult she has no way to just go straight." Once you're complicit in massive genocide or global drug and chemical weapons trade, I say just go whole hog and be the supervillain.

[jump]

Meh, the whole drugged Bats thing was a bit unnecessary otherwise I have no problem with the Morrison version and like t hedge said much better it's about time she got off the fence and decided if she was a goody or a baddie.

Was the "drug" ever explained as in was it a roofie or viagra?

[t hedge coke]

Was the "drug" ever explained as in was it a roofie or viagra?

The drugged thing was just a memory lapse that the editor didn't catch. In any case, we see more of that in Inc vol 2, and we can't be sure what she put in, because he's also a) weary for everything else and b) has consumed alcohol, which really isn't something he's going to be used to.

In context, "I remember being drugged into a depraved eugenics experiment" sounds like a lot of projecting from Batman, who can't deal with how attracted he is to Talia, but also, "depraved eugenics experiment" is pretty apt and something that, sometimes, gets too overlooked.

[Punisher007]

What Morrison did was to remove any kind of complexity/ambiguity from her. He just turned her into a two-dimensional mustache-twirling psych, how very boring/uninteresting. He also made her motives even MORE petty than they were before. Also, the "drugging" thing was so unnecessary. There was no reason why her hookup with Batman couldn't have been consensual and then still had everyone else play out the same way. Another writer at DC needs to fix her at some point.

[Cameron Samurai]

I did like Morrison's run but I really wanted Talia to find redemption at the end instead of being dispatched by random silver age throwback no.34533. I've always found her story compelling, a great lover and a proper advocate of Bruce's mission, but with the tragic twist of being torn in two over two men and their conflicting ideas on how to make the world function. James Bond novels wish they were this compelling.

[batalia]

Kevin Nowlan

[godisawesome]

I think eventually we'll get some kind of amalgamated Talia, whether in comics or some other media, and that day will be quite awesome.

Without Morrison's changes, you've got a character who's perpetually a puppet for her father and a prize for the world's most dangerous men to fight over. Her brief time rebelling against daddy and helping Bruce destroy LexCorp was pretty awesome (seriously, she was an ambiguous power player uninvolved with her father's insanity), but then, as mentioned above, she was brainwashed back to lackey. Giving her. Leviathan and her own focus makes her a big league villain.

But with Morrison's changes, you get a mostly one dimensional villain so cliche it hurts. She doesn't really evolve beyond being a plot-device. If anything, she actually devolves into more of one: she's the by-the-numbers world conqueror (without any resonating motive), callous parent in a metaphorical "divorce" that claims her son's life (in which she shows less emotion than her previous incarnations), and plot device opposite Batman Inc.

We also lose an awful lot of potential character arcs and developments in shenanigans leading up to her transformation. Were she and Bruce genuinely in love when Damian was conceived? Apparently not, because first the story was removed from continuity, than Morrison hand waved it as eugenics and date rape (because somehow that's supposed to be more engaging then a broken hearted relationship with actual visceral emotions from both parties.) There's so much potential in making their little family a tragic failure than there is in making her a parody of a supervillain with an alien personality and thought process.

I mean this is ridiculous: Even the movie they just released is like "meh, Batman's a baby-daddy." This is big damn deal, and Talia should be as well, but not just as an antagonist, but as a character! Damain got awesome once he ceased being a plot device, so the same should apply to Talia.

Imagine reading a book or watching a movie where Talia and Bruce are genuinely in love and trusting of one another, in manner outside of Ra's's "I need a male heir, dagnabit!" context. A story where we see why Bruce would find her captivating and vice versa. Then, when they break apart, we actually see Talia tragically slide down the path towards villainy, and we see introspection on both her and Bruce's view of their relationship both past and present. Then when she surpasses her father, there's a strong personal relationship between the two that Damian finds himself caught in the middle of.

Now that would be awesome.

[oasis1313]

Has Bludhaven been destroyed--or even introduced at all--in the New DC Puniverse?

[batalia]

I think eventually we'll get some kind of amalgamated Talia, whether in comics or some other media, and that day will be quite awesome.

Without Morrison's changes, you've got a character who's perpetually a puppet for her father and a prize for the world's most dangerous men to fight over. Her brief time rebelling against daddy and helping Bruce destroy LexCorp was pretty awesome (seriously, she was an ambiguous power player uninvolved with her father's insanity), but then, as mentioned above, she was brainwashed back to lackey. Giving her. Leviathan and her own focus makes her a big league villain.

But with Morrison's changes, you get a mostly one dimensional villain so cliche it hurts. She doesn't really evolve beyond being a plot-device. If anything, she actually devolves into more of one: she's the by-the-numbers world conqueror (without any resonating motive), callous parent in a metaphorical "divorce" that claims her son's life (in which she shows less emotion than her previous incarnations), and plot device opposite Batman Inc.

We also lose an awful lot of potential character arcs and developments in shenanigans leading up to her transformation. Were she and Bruce genuinely in love when Damian was conceived? Apparently not, because first the story was removed from continuity, than Morrison hand waved it as eugenics and date rape (because somehow that's supposed to be more engaging then a broken hearted relationship with actual visceral emotions from both parties.) There's so much potential in making their little family a tragic failure than there is in making her a parody of a supervillain with an alien personality and thought process.

I mean this is ridiculous: Even the movie they just released is like "meh, Batman's a baby-daddy." This is big damn deal, and Talia should be as well, but not just as an antagonist, but as a character! Damain got awesome once he ceased being a plot device, so the same should apply to Talia.

Imagine reading a book or watching a movie where Talia and Bruce are genuinely in love and trusting of one another, in manner outside of Ra's's "I need a male heir, dagnabit!" context. A story where we see why Bruce would find her captivating and vice versa. Then, when they break apart, we actually see Talia tragically slide down the path towards villainy, and we see introspection on both her and Bruce's view of their relationship both past and present. Then when she surpasses her father, there's a strong personal relationship between the two that Damian finds himself caught in the middle of.

Now that would be awesome.

QFT
That is exactly how I feel.
I want this so bad. I would love a Talia or Damian book. There is great story here that is waiting to be told.

[batalia]

[darkseidpwns]

Chris Nolans Talia and Morrisons Talia were really the same person when you think about it and they're both highly decorated individuals of their respective professions. When you get down to it,that's the only plausible direction for the character once she's stopped becoming a plot device who's sole purpose is to facilitate the dynamic between Batman and Ra's(and Bane,Jason,Nyssa etc).

While I dislike Morrison and Nolan's one dimensional depiction,the direction in itself I thought was legit.