Talia Al Ghul Appreciation

[JBatmanFan05]

Throwing a temper tantrums and acting like a woman scorned is not the mark of ‘powerful’ woman. It’s the mark of a woman with a low sense of self and a mark of a loser. A powerful woman would just walk away from Batman, tell him that it was his loss and get on with her life.

She doesn’t place her self worth or value in the hands of others. The old Talia would never have thrown herself at Batman much less allowed her behavior and how she chooses to be conduct herself . She owns herself first and foremost.

I think that's just one view of what a powerful woman is/should be. Talia deeply loving Bruce and not taking it well when he messes with her love and her relationship with her son doesn't necessarily mean she's any less powerful a person. You seem to almost presume love and strong feelings are a human weakness. Old Talia very much threw herself at Batman at times and they were very close at times (see Son of the Demon and other old classic appearances).

Morrison's Talia asserted herself big time, attacking the world like never before with a triple calculated goal of ruling it and taking down Bruce (revenge) and winning back her son to her values/her rearing.

[Diggy]

yup Don't tell anyone.

Haha that's cool I got you. Idk if you'd remember me but my name is ChiefSosa on there.

[GrandKaiser]

Haha that's cool I got you. Idk if you'd remember me but my name is ChiefSosa on there.

Well I recognize your avy haha. How are things over there? Is the Man still banning people left & right? :work:

[t hedge coke]

Throwing a temper tantrums and acting like a woman scorned is not the mark of ‘powerful’ woman. It’s the mark of a woman with a low sense of self and a mark of a loser. A powerful woman would just walk away from Batman, tell him that it was his loss and get on with her life.

That's like saying R'as should walk away from power, because pursuing power is what keeps getting him his ass kicked. Or, Lex Luthor should just walk away from Superman and the world, because they spurn his desire to set them on fire and make sexy with the ashes he can't sell. "It's your loss, weird alien vigilante. And, you world! I coulda owned you! But nooooo. You went for the tights boy. Fine! Imma take my bal. And. Go. Home."

[godisawesome]

I'm more disappointed in the manner that Morrison executed Talia's rise to power and her personality than anything else. I love the core concept of Talia basically usurping her father's resources, MO, and overall place as Big Bad in the LOA, and I like the concept of her having a war with Bruce over her son.

But Morrison's style of character writing while on Batman never really appealed to me. He chose, as an artist, to write certain characters more as archetypes than as human beings. I've rarely enjoyed his Batman as much as others do, and I found most of his villains in RIP and Beyond to be more cackling cliches and stereotypes than nuanced individuals with unique personalities.

Talia especially seemed to be more defined by her plot purpose and broad strokes characterization than anything meaty that I could sink my metaphorical teeth into. The way she talks to Batman doesn't seem like the way two ex-lovers would address each other; instead, she's mostly espousing meta-commentary on herself and Batman and talking like a cheesy badguy. Now, I can see the appeal to that style do characterization; it's quicker to grasp, and plays to people who love winks towards the audience in dialogue. But I think Talia could have been a much more powerful and emotionally riveting villain if Morrison had taken the time to give her more emphatic (not sympathetic but understandable and still warped) motivations and if he had milked their past as lovers for tragedy and not tried to sidestep it double quick. Because aim not going to lie; I find the woefully brief portrayal of Talia in TDKR as a better characterization because at the end of the day, it's more nuanced and in quite a few ways deeper than Morrison's. To me, at least.

In other words, I think Talia could, and should, have been portrayed as less of the classic Fah Lo Suee archetype but with even less subtlety, and more as Demona from Gargoyles, with Shakespearean flaws and a viewpoint that scares the audience more because we could totally see a sane person falling to that point. She could and would still be utterly destructive to both herself and her enemies, but with a nuance that might have some audience members treating her as MacBeth and less like Iago.

So, if they ever adapt the series to another medium, they should avoid Son of Batman's route (where they removed even her competency as a villain and planner) which kept the "rape angle," and instead embrace a kind of Mask of the Phatasm vibe between the two characters. Andrea Beaumont is memorable because the story convinces you that she and Bruce loved each other and now are irrevocably opposed. Use that.

[The Kid]

So, if they ever adapt the series to another medium, they should avoid Son of Batman's route (where they removed even her competency as a villain and planner) which kept the "rape angle," and instead embrace a kind of Mask of the Phatasm vibe between the two characters. Andrea Beaumont is memorable because the story convinces you that she and Bruce loved each other and now are irrevocably opposed. Use that.

Completely agree with this

[JBatmanFan05]

Talia especially seemed to be more defined by her plot purpose and broad strokes characterization than anything meaty that I could sink my metaphorical teeth into. The way she talks to Batman doesn't seem like the way two ex-lovers would address each other; instead, she's mostly espousing meta-commentary on herself and Batman and talking like a cheesy badguy. Now, I can see the appeal to that style do characterization; it's quicker to grasp, and plays to people who love winks towards the audience in dialogue. But I think Talia could have been a much more powerful and emotionally riveting villain if Morrison had taken the time to give her more emphatic (not sympathetic but understandable and still warped) motivations and if he had milked their past as lovers for tragedy and not tried to sidestep it double quick.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but you articulate your criticisms so well. I think that issue tackling Talia's origin added depth and emotion to her tragic life story as a superpowerful superwealthy psychopath megalomaniac's daughter and her villainous turn. As others have said, and I think it's somewhat true: Morrison likes his villains more villainous. I think Morrison achieved an interesting balance with Talia in that you see moments of her heartbreak, moments of old Talia, and yet she was also this new cold angry person (time and life has changed her & Bruce, the old dynamics are gone). Going Kill Bill (Kill Bruce) on Batman and his precious world.

[Diggy]

Well I recognize your avy haha. How are things over there? Is the Man still banning people left & right? :work:

Ah yea it's kinda the same I guess. They went crazy and handed out bans for anything for a while but they calmed down eventually. S and the other admins actually came back recently so they've been updating the site. My man Stan Smith got permabanned the other day for speaking out against the site and saying the admins only care cause they have competition now with all these similar forums popping up. Forum isn't as entertaining as it once was and a lot of the classic members are gone, it's still addicting tho.

[GrandKaiser]

Ah yea it's kinda the same I guess. They went crazy and handed out bans for anything for a while but they calmed down eventually. S and the other admins actually came back recently so they've been updating the site. My man Stan Smith got permabanned the other day for speaking out against the site and saying the admins only care cause they have competition now with all these similar forums popping up. Forum isn't as entertaining as it once was and a lot of the classic members are gone, it's still addicting tho.

Yeah Kin told me that there was an open registration because the admins were worried about YZT and OVOtalk and other sites where members were moving to. How long have you been on here?

[Celgress]

Completely agree with this

As do I, what an awful story.

[oasis1313]

Talia is hot.

[Diggy]

Yeah Kin told me that there was an open registration because the admins were worried about YZT and OVOtalk and other sites where members were moving to. How long have you been on here?

Couple years I guess. I was named YMCMB and was more active on the old forums, then they reset bout a year ago and I kinda lost interest in comics round the same time so I haven't been as active on these forums. It seems like a lot of people never made new accounts when CBR forums reset actually and we lost a good bit of activity for whatever reason. I'm getting comics mailed to my house now so hopefully I'll be on here more and maintain interest.

[godisawesome]

We'll have to agree to disagree, but you articulate your criticisms so well. I think that issue tackling Talia's origin added depth and emotion to her tragic life story as a superpowerful superwealthy psychopath megalomaniac's daughter and her villainous turn. As others have said, and I think it's somewhat true: Morrison likes his villains more villainous. I think Morrison achieved an interesting balance with Talia in that you see moments of her heartbreak, moments of old Talia, and yet she was also this new cold angry person (time and life has changed her & Bruce, the old dynamics are gone). Going Kill Bill (Kill Bruce) on Batman and his precious world.

Thank you for the compliment. And I do actually like the overall outline of Morrison's version of the character. I think my biggest problem was the way that Talia's character arc was dragged about six different ways leading up to his handling of her in INC., combined with my preference for MacBeth style badguys (characters with a clear progression into their evil, mired by hesitation before they embrace their turn with somber sobriety) vs Iago style badguys (characters who thrill on the evil they create for its own sake and the power rush, and with their turn to evil downplayed a great deal.)

I think there would have been a great story showing how Talia could go form the independent and neutral ex-chairman of LexCorp with a chilled relationship with Batman that still had some embers burning into the coldly detached and bitter mastermind of later stories. But, instead we got her brainwashed by Nyssa, stuck in limbo and stereotypes for a few years, portrayed in two slight but distinct characterizations by Morrison leading up to INC., and then INC. itself.

And I completley understand Morrison's desire to have villains be villains; I just don't regard that style as particularly frightening or as complex as it could be, especially in the limitations of print. Again, I prefer to empathize with villains, not sympathize with them, and that means I want to understand them and their motivations, even if they're crazy or clearly rooted in vices that got out of control. It's probably just the way I read it in my head, but Morrison's dialogue and characterizations sometimes strike me as parodies of his work, and that combined with his somewhat garish art preferences just don't suit my tastes.

[t hedge coke]

It's still odd to me that a story wherein Talia is holding whole cities in thrall, has a standing army actively recruiting children, has major arms in drug trafficking, human trafficking, superhuman growth, development and marketing, literally a global crime empire, and is defeated at the last moment after she totally beats Batman, is seen as slighting her strength as a character or a villain more than her being some guy's daughter who benefits from horrible crime but oh she's just a girl, you know, and a bit sad, and she's got a tight skirt on so let's forgive her.

Is she being petty about Batman? Maybe. But no more petty than any batvillain, and really loud and dominant global crime empire. Joker's a creepy guy, but in general, Joker kills by hand and terrorizes a city. Talia's networks, in one night, does more damage than the Joker manages in a year, between kidnappings, brainwashings, murders, assaults, thefts, addictions, biological weapons, economic terrorism, prostitution and drug trade. Talia basically sat on a pile of blooded cash with one middle finger for her dad, one for Bruce, and then set some of her own army on fire for entertainment.

Kathy took her down. Not Batman. Not Ra's. Not Batman. Not Batman Inc, or Hurt, or the Justice League or the Outsiders. Kathy Kane.

What was Batman going to do? Have her arrested? Like that would hold or stop anything?

[Diggy]

It's still odd to me that a story wherein Talia is holding whole cities in thrall, has a standing army actively recruiting children, has major arms in drug trafficking, human trafficking, superhuman growth, development and marketing, literally a global crime empire, and is defeated at the last moment after she totally beats Batman, is seen as slighting her strength as a character or a villain more than her being some guy's daughter who benefits from horrible crime but oh she's just a girl, you know, and a bit sad, and she's got a tight skirt on so let's forgive her.

Is she being petty about Batman? Maybe. But no more petty than any batvillain, and really loud and dominant global crime empire. Joker's a creepy guy, but in general, Joker kills by hand and terrorizes a city. Talia's networks, in one night, does more damage than the Joker manages in a year, between kidnappings, brainwashings, murders, assaults, thefts, addictions, biological weapons, economic terrorism, prostitution and drug trade. Talia basically sat on a pile of blooded cash with one middle finger for her dad, one for Bruce, and then set some of her own army on fire for entertainment.

Kathy took her down. Not Batman. Not Ra's. Not Batman. Not Batman Inc, or Hurt, or the Justice League or the Outsiders. Kathy Kane.

What was Batman going to do? Have her arrested? Like that would hold or stop anything?

Yea, that's exactly why I would've much preferred for her to stay dead. Her ultimate story has been told and there's nowhere to go with it now other than resetting her memory and just starting her over I guess.