Talia Al Ghul Appreciation

[t hedge coke]

I think there would have been a great story showing how Talia could go form the independent and neutral ex-chairman of LexCorp with a chilled relationship with Batman that still had some embers burning into the coldly detached and bitter mastermind of later stories.

There's no way to do a "neutral" Talia. For one thing, neutral in relation to what? But, more concretely, her turn with LexCorp, like all of her jetsetting, is rooted firmly in blood money and crime. She's rich because of crime, because of cruelty and abuse, murder, slavery, and terrorism.

A lifetime terrorist, murderer, and crime boss can't become "neutral" by just not actively demanding murders for awhile. She's still just as guilty of all her crimes even if she took a hard turn and went straight.

[Abishai100]

Talia is shrewd and mysterious and her relationship to her unusual father Ra's al Ghul illuminates the reversible logic of Gotham City: simpaticos based on nihilism.

Imagine that Talia has a collection of photo negatives, believing that they represent her odd perspective on 'memory enhancement' through 'nihilism nostalgia.' It's no surprise that she is Ra's daughter and that she has been mentioned in romantic stories about connections with the Dark Knight.

I see Talia going two ways in her life --- settling down as Bruce Wayne's wife or becoming the aide and confidante (and spouse) of the menacing Count Vertigo.





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[Abishai100]

A Woman of Multiplicity



Talia says to her father Ra's al Ghul at a young age (which impresses her diabolical dad): "Prepare me for that velvet line to empire."

There's been a lot of talk linking Talia romantically to the Dark Knight, but if Bruce/Batman is not careful, Talia's influence may seduce the Dark Knight to the dark side (perhaps turning him into something like the Scarecrow)...or, she might soothe his anxious heart.

[K. Jones]

I read Death and the Maidens for the first time today. I like what Rucka was attempting with the whole "eh, let's just replace Ra's al Ghul with a woman". I mean having just read much of his whole DC run it seems like "women, women, everywhere" is the mission statement. And I recall it being sort of organic back in the day, though read all at once without parallel contemporary DC books of the time to balance things it's kind of interestingly tilted more toward like, even Batman being the secondary character a lot of the time, sort of scenario.

Anyway I'd been itching to read it knowing it was a Klaus Janson piece and all that, and liking Nyssa well enough from Arrow (though I knew the characters were ostensibly not the same character). But mostly with an eye toward Talia's characterization. Boy she gets a raw deal in that comic but not the one I was expecting. Tortured and effectively brainwashed ... repeatedly subjected to death/near-death and Lazarus dunks as a mental programming technique ... used as a tool to keep Batman out of the way while her father gets euthanized and usurped (somewhat willingly). And she starts off so demure. Oh evil, sure, but very much in the "classic Talia" mold, same as we saw in Rucka's "Dependence". (Which was cool for me to place the time period where she was running LexCorp for President Lex.)

She pretty "classic depiction" in Hush, which is obviously right before Death and the Maidens.

Anyway my point is sort of that while Morrison certainly took it to the extreme conclusion, Talia had already been shifted out of that pulp characterization of being a slightly redeemable evil daughter with circumstantial, indirect or whatever other rationalization blood on her hands but a soft spot for Batman and into outright villainy. And I was looking for evidence to showcase this. Her experiences at the hands of Nyssa definitely feel like enough to alter her a lot, in a negative way. Following that from what I can recall she starts doing super-villain things with alarming regularity. Blood feuds and Secret Societies of Super-Villainy and all that.

But at any rate, the heel-turn as far as just hating Batman, seems to happen right within DOTM and features deaths and lazarus baths ... so it'll be interesting to see if a restoration back to her original, not-so-evil-you-have-to-hate-her personality comes with this latest death and lazarus revival.

[JBatmanFan05]

Anyway my point is sort of that while Morrison certainly took it to the extreme conclusion, Talia had already been shifted out of that pulp characterization of being a slightly redeemable evil daughter with circumstantial, indirect or whatever other rationalization blood on her hands but a soft spot for Batman and into outright villainy. And I was looking for evidence to showcase this. Her experiences at the hands of Nyssa definitely feel like enough to alter her a lot, in a negative way. Following that from what I can recall she starts doing super-villain things with alarming regularity. Blood feuds and Secret Societies of Super-Villainy and all that.

I absolutely agree. I myself traced back the shift somewhat to Legacy/Bane of the Demon, to Chuck Dixon. She was pretty villainous and murderous in it. Gone was O'Neill, Wein, Wolfman, and Barr's softer view of her.

So Morrison kinda jolted me to honestly look at Talia's evolution over the years.

[Abishai100]

Talia courts both Two-Face and Batman and coaxes their sensibilities about vigilantism, since they are polar opposites (perhaps why she is intrigued by them both).

Who she chooses has huge consequences:

"If I choose Two-Face, I can persuade him to join me and my father Ra's al Ghul in our eco-terrorism operations. If I choose Batman, I can persuade him to forge a half-way mission with my father Ra's al Ghul, and together, we can build a moderate but publicly delicious eco-amendment plan."




This love gauntlet sets off a philosophical wrestling match between Two-Face and the Dark Knight.

All of this was accomplished by Talia's influence over the men in her life (and Gotham City) to market a lovely and deceptively psychological 'eco-life campaign.'







The Monkey Wrench Gang




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[ChaoticScholar]

I love Timmverse Talia. All that nuisance packed into a 30 minute show came off better then any version I read in the books.

[CharlesInCharge]

I love Timmverse Talia. All that nuisance packed into a 30 minute show came off better then any version I read in the books.

Also more sympathetic than the current comic book version by 10x, as well as a much more likable love interest than the Timmverse Selina.

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[yohyoi]

Also more sympathetic than the current comic book version by 10x, as well as a much more likable love interest than the Timmverse Selina.

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tas02-1.jpg

Timmverse Selina also had the hots for Nightwing. Ugh...

[CharlesInCharge]

Timmverse Selina also had the hots for Nightwing. Ugh...

Also, Bruce in Batman Beyond, 'Out of the Past', just flicks past Selina's photo with an angry look.

Something to think about at the end of the episode when discussing Talia:

Bruce: "She was a very special woman."

Terry: "THE special woman?"

[dietrich]

Talia is hot.

You can say that again. The woman is hotness personified.
I'm not a fan of what Morrison did to the character. She went crazy rapist under his pen. Glad Tomasi retconed the drugged batman garbage and Gleason and Percy redeemed her humanity somewhat in RSB and TT

[dietrich]

[dietrich]

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Talia was the first woman I ever fell in love with as a kid watching BTAS. She was pretty, strong, could defend herself, smart, manipulative, and complex.

[darkseidpwns]

I absolutely agree. I myself traced back the shift somewhat to Legacy/Bane of the Demon, to Chuck Dixon. She was pretty villainous and murderous in it. Gone was O'Neill, Wein, Wolfman, and Barr's softer view of her.

So Morrison kinda jolted me to honestly look at Talia's evolution over the years.

Same here, that old Talia was last seen in Batman Chronicles, from Bane of the Demon and onwards the character clearly underwent a shift which culminated with Morrison. Rucka by then had already taken it to the extreme.