Sexy vs Sexist: Where do you draw the line?

[TroubleWithTrebles]

Bill Black's indie portfolio publication in the manilla folder packaging back in the early 1980s was sexist while aiming for sexy.

The sex scenes in Elfquest by Pini from the late 70s to 1983 involved sex, but were romantic and sexy, not exploitation.

[Paradox]

The only reason Emma dressed that way at the beginning was that Claremont was knocking off the Hellfire Club from the British TV series, the Avengers. There was no "real" reason, other than ones someone later pulled out of their ass.



EDIT: Darnit, the pic wasn't showing up. Fixed.

[Kencana]

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with enjoying 'sexy' picture. I'm a woman myself and like 'sexy' superheroine art as long as it's anatomically correct. If I'm said it's sexist, it's like saying "This product is not made to appeal me. Unforgivable!" But when people suddenly 'defend' sexualized superheroine, I'm a bit confused. Isn't it obvious it's to attract reader? The creator put them in that situation.

I like DC Bombshells. They are pretty. When I went to Kinokuniya months ago, I spent minutes staring at DC Bombshells figure. Even there's a woman that cosplay DC Bombshell Harley Quinn.

The funny thing is... this is DC Bombshells art for Starfire :

tumblr_n5dsuh1ZN81qchrsxo1_400.jpg

This is her regular clothing:



*dying of laughter cause DC Bombhells Starfire is actually more clothed than the current comic book Starfire*

[TroubleWithTrebles]

Fastner and Larson
Hildebrandt Bros
Pander Bros
Paul Smith
Gene Colan:

sexy

Chaos Comics
Image before 2006
Bisley (despite my love of his painting technique):

Sexist

[Tonamelt]

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with enjoying 'sexy' picture. I'm a woman myself and like 'sexy' superheroine art as long as it's anatomically correct. If I'm said it's sexist, it's like saying "This product is not made to appeal me. Unforgivable!" But when people suddenly 'defend' sexualized superheroine, I'm a bit confused. Isn't it obvious it's to attract reader? The creator put them in that situation.

You are totally right, characters are what creators (or the editorial) want them to be.

But in the case of Emma Frost, she started being a villain and it was pretty clear from the beginning that oversexualization was part of her personality, the same way as many real life women prefer sexy clothes than conservative ones.

Emma 1.jpg

Emma 2.jpg

Making a conservative Emma just for the sake of political correctness would feel out of character.

[t hedge coke]

Emma's den mother period from Gen X amuses me, because her style of clothes really took a turn. First, she was wrapped tight in layers, then eventually, swimming in big shapeless things.

This wasn't done to be "PC" of course, or to appease some imaginary audience out there who'd rage against another superheroine fighting in her panties, but because, well, she was a reliable and caring teacher, motherly and all and that, consciously or subconsciously, facilitated a style change.

[Tonamelt]

Emma's den mother period from Gen X amuses me, because her style of clothes really took a turn. First, she was wrapped tight in layers, then eventually, swimming in big shapeless things.

This wasn't done to be "PC" of course, or to appease some imaginary audience out there who'd rage against another superheroine fighting in her panties, but because, well, she was a reliable and caring teacher, motherly and all and that, consciously or subconsciously, facilitated a style change.

Well, let's be honest... She was out of character.

[ed2962]

You are totally right, characters are what creators (or the editorial) want them to be.

But in the case of Emma Frost, she started being a villain and it was pretty clear from the beginning that oversexualization was part of her personality, the same way as many real life women prefer sexy clothes than conservative ones.

Emma 1.jpg

Emma 2.jpg

Making a conservative Emma just for the sake of political correctness would feel out of character.

This was the speech I was thinking of from before.

Once she's no longer part of the Hellfire Club though, it makes sense that she'd tone it down a notch. She wouldn't have be wearing a burka. Heck, she could still be a little flamboyant, just without the bondage wear. I get that they were trying to contrast her "bad girl" with Jean's "girl next door" but the Quietly design, I personally felt was awful.

[Ghostwise]

Well, let's be honest... She was out of character.

Characters evolve. This was a pretty clear case of such, and her crushing guilt over the death of the Hellions has been an important part of her characterisation for many years now.

[People Of The Earth]

Tbh, every explanation used to justify why female superheroes wear sexy clothing is just sad. Just admit that you think sexy scantily women are hot. EVERYONE think that. Using excuse like "it's iconic", "she's a strong independent woman" seems ridiculous. They are fictional character. The creator made a conscious decision to put her in sexy outfit to attract male reader. And it sells.

Take Emma Frost for example. I love Emma Frost. She's one of my favorite character. I never think, "She wear that outfit cause she's so liberated". I think, "The creator made her wear that outift cause she's hot."

So is sexy scantily woman sexist? Idk. They are there to attract male reader. It's depend how they're treated in canon.

Clearly.

Personally, I can't help but notice everytime I see an outfit clearly designed more for eye-catching the male audience than for being practical to the heroin, how difficult it would be to rock the costume itself while superheroing around.
Ms. Marvel or Psylocke used to be quite a challenge in that regard, so many impossibilities that the artist made possible with them and their costumes...

Ugh.

[Alan2099]

Well, let's be honest... She was out of character.

Actually I feel she had more character development in her Generation X issues than she's gotten sense. She's actually became less deep and mature of a character.

Back then she was having to face being in a coma for a long time, her students all dying, trying to be a more positive role model, and the fact that she was getting older. She didn't always handle it well, and sometime she'd do the wrong thing, but you could see the growth.

... then she joined the X-men and all that got ignored.

... and she got at least ten years younger.

[t hedge coke]

Character growth is fine. Conflating maturity with mumus and compassion or good teaching with a progressively spacy den mother caricaturing is... awkward.

And, she was a pretty good teacher, all told, in Morrison's NXM. Heck, arguably, she's not any worse a teacher overall than any other x-teacher, particularly Mr Dodgy, Professor X.

[Tonamelt]

Emma Frost's supposed growth was just a phase, just like the X-Men using leather jackets instead of spandex...

Today's Emma is still oversexualized and she enjoys sending unprepared and weak students to dangerous missions (Uncanny X-Men vol. 3 #14).

And you know what? No big deal, because unlike DC, Marvel has balance, yes there is an Emma Frost, but there is also a Kitty Pryde.

2783028-all_new_x_men_6a.jpg

[TroubleWithTrebles]

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with enjoying 'sexy' picture. I'm a woman myself and like 'sexy' superheroine art as long as it's anatomically correct.

I assume that you are therefore comfy with The Bakshi Babe and The Frazetta Woman, since both tropes are very much an organic goddess style life drawing model image. Yes/no?

[Mark]

How the costume is cut is a big part of the problem.
Wonder_Woman_220_2005_Cover.jpg

I guess that what I'm asking isn't so much a sexism vs sexy dividing line, but rather oversexualization vs adequately sexy or asexual. For example many people got upset when Miss Marvel(captain Marvel) got her new costume and when Powergirl got her new costume post flashpoint. Some people even lumped these two characters together, holding them up as Political correctness gone amuck. But to me those two situations are completely different. Miss Marvel was never meant to be as sexualized as she became over time.


Plus her oversexualization never made sense with the characters backstory and general disposition. Powergirl on the other hand was completely different. From the very beginning she was an abrasive in your face character and they gave her an in your face costume to match.

In the case of this character their was actually an attempt to desexualize from the original version.

Then you have characters like Phantom Lady whose whole purpose for existing was sexualization.