The Sad Death of the Hobgoblin

[Lasse]

If you look at the end of Stern's ASM run, the Hobgoblin was clearly going insane. It's easy to forget now, but the Lee/Romita Norman Osborn was a sympathetic character who was destroyed by his own mad science. It wasn't until Norman's return in the 90s that Marvel ran with the idea that he was always a monster. So if I read Stern's original intentions correctly, the Goblin legacy is always madness, and Kingsley was destined to be just as crazy as his predecessor.

Yeah, he was slowly going insane, that's for sure. It was somehow ironic that he said that he wouldn't fall into the same traps as Norman Osborn did, but still might after all. But I still think there was a coldness to the Hobgoblin that made him insanely cool.

By the way, I wonder when those Hobgoblin issues by Stern are coming to Comixology? I have them in paper form, but in Swedish, and I would love to have them digitally.

[BlitheringToot]

If you look at the end of Stern's ASM run, the Hobgoblin was clearly going insane. It's easy to forget now, but the Lee/Romita Norman Osborn was a sympathetic character who was destroyed by his own mad science. It wasn't until Norman's return in the 90s that Marvel ran with the idea that he was always a monster. So if I read Stern's original intentions correctly, the Goblin legacy is always madness, and Kingsley was destined to be just as crazy as his predecessor.

And that's why, to me at least, Leeds made more sense. He crossed the first line when he killed George Hill on impulse, and then he tried to justify his actions as the Hobgoblin by saying it was partially about protecting Betty (and also removing Flash as a potential rival). But as he got caught up in his role, he only became more and more deranged and obsessed, as Norman had become, with destroying Spider-Man.

Also, didn't "Spider-Man vs. Wolverine" happen right after the story where Hobby was extorting Harry Osborn? Because he was in pretty rough shape then (casts, broken ribs, neck brace, etc.). If he was still recovering from those injuries, that might explain why Foreigner's thugs were able to subdue him so easily.

ORRRRRRR (enter my wild conspiracy theory) the reason Ned was subdued so easily was because (drum-roll) he was a clone (cue the collective Spider-fandom groan). Where in the WORLD did that theory come from? Well, during the original clone saga, Jackal kidnapped Ned. And when does the Jackal NOT take DNA samples? I'm guessing Ned either found Jackal or his lab, or even was in cahoots with Foreigner from the get-go, and set up a clone patsy to take the fall while he vanished off the grid (again, likely to protect Betty as he realized his activities were putting her in danger). He brainwashed Kingsley, his armorer (which isn't too much of a stretch because Slott's run showed the Winkler machine can even program fighting skills), and juiced him with Goblin formula. Then he made his escape.

I dunno, too much of a stretch even by comic book standards?

[Lasse]

And that's why, to me at least, Leeds made more sense. He crossed the first line when he killed George Hill on impulse, and then he tried to justify his actions as the Hobgoblin by saying it was partially about protecting Betty (and also removing Flash as a potential rival). But as he got caught up in his role, he only became more and more deranged and obsessed, as Norman had become, with destroying Spider-Man.

Also, didn't "Spider-Man vs. Wolverine" happen right after the story where Hobby was extorting Harry Osborn? Because he was in pretty rough shape then (casts, broken ribs, neck brace, etc.). If he was still recovering from those injuries, that might explain why Foreigner's thugs were able to subdue him so easily.

ORRRRRRR (enter my wild conspiracy theory) the reason Ned was subdued so easily was because (drum-roll) he was a clone (cue the collective Spider-fandom groan). Where in the WORLD did that theory come from? Well, during the original clone saga, Jackal kidnapped Ned. And when does the Jackal NOT take DNA samples? I'm guessing Ned either found Jackal or his lab, or even was in cahoots with Foreigner from the get-go, and set up a clone patsy to take the fall while he vanished off the grid (again, likely to protect Betty as he realized his activities were putting her in danger). He brainwashed Kingsley, his armorer (which isn't too much of a stretch because Slott's run showed the Winkler machine can even program fighting skills), and juiced him with Goblin formula. Then he made his escape.

I dunno, too much of a stretch even by comic book standards?

It sounds perfectly plausible compared to how they explained that Aunt May hadn't died and who died in her place.

Stuff for a "Hobgoblin Lives AGAIN!" story? :P

[BlitheringToot]

It sounds perfectly plausible compared to how they explained that Aunt May hadn't died and who died in her place.

Oh goodness ...

Honestly, I was glad to see the old bird again ... unfortunately that story was terrible. And she just kinda languished uselessly for 30 issues after that until Straczynski showed up and made her great (I distinctly remember Byrne drawing her in a T-shirt and sweatpants with a bowl-cut, and it was horrifying).

[David Walton]

Yeah, he was slowly going insane, that's for sure. It was somehow ironic that he said that he wouldn't fall into the same traps as Norman Osborn did, but still might after all. But I still think there was a coldness to the Hobgoblin that made him insanely cool.

First, I want to clarify something. I am not suggesting that Hobgoblin would have sucked as a villain once his identity was revealed. I am suggesting that he'd have been a lot like Bane, who inevitably lost a a bit of his edge once Azrael owned him in Batman #500. Bane didn't lose all of what made him great in the first place. He was still the tactical genius who had broken the Batman, after all. But he could never be that unstoppable force again.

Hobgoblin would still have been cold, calculating, and ruthless. But once his identity was revealed, he couldn't have pulled off something like his blackmail scheme at the country club. And he'd no longer be the villain that Spidey simply couldn't catch. He'd have to come at crime from a new angle.

(In a lot of ways, he'd have been exactly like Macendale, who didn't get respect because people knew who he really was. He'd show up and threaten people and they'd be like, "Screw you, Kingsley-Fisk-Leeds-Bannon..."

By the way, I wonder when those Hobgoblin issues by Stern are coming to Comixology? I have them in paper form, but in Swedish, and I would love to have them digitally.

Pretty soon, I expect. I think they're in the 220s now...

[JBatmanFan05]

Leeds never made sense to me as Hobgoblin. So I loved that Stern revealed Kingsley as Hobby, somebody who you could believe was a member of the Century Club and own stock in Osborn Manufacturing.

I really love Hobgoblin Lives and think it saved the character for all of time. Hobby may never reach the heights of the Stern run again, but that's not so bad, he's still one of the great Spidey sagas and that may be enough perhaps.

[BlitheringToot]

The thing about Kingsley is he was already well-to-do. I mean, not that it wouldn't preclude him from wanting to make EVEN MORE MONEY by being the Hobgoblin, but he wasn't exactly hurting for cash. I mean, he was clearly a greedy sonuvagun, and that's more than enough motivation, but Ned, though, I could see really jumping at the chance at that kind of power. A struggling journalist in the big city ... with a wife to support and a future to plan for ... kicked around by an abusive boss all day despite constantly risking his neck to get good crime stories. Yeah, I could see that guy feeling like a kid in a candy store when he found all Osborn's toys.

[JBatmanFan05]

The thing about Kingsley is he was already well-to-do. I mean, not that it wouldn't preclude him from wanting to make EVEN MORE MONEY by being the Hobgoblin, but he wasn't exactly hurting for cash. I mean, he was clearly a greedy sonuvagun, and that's more than enough motivation, but Ned, though, I could see really jumping at the chance at that kind of power. A struggling journalist in the big city ... with a wife to support and a future to plan for ... kicked around by an abusive boss all day despite constantly risking his neck to get good crime stories. Yeah, I could see that guy feeling like a kid in a candy store when he found all Osborn's toys.

Yea, but Roddy's story of being a businessman very akin to Norman who thinks he can avoid Norman's pitfalls and his own is also a compelling one. A story of narcissism and shocking greed and how it can all undo a man (even after we & he thinks he got away) perhaps with the help of that dreaded Goblin serum.

[Lasse]

First, I want to clarify something. I am not suggesting that Hobgoblin would have sucked as a villain once his identity was revealed. I am suggesting that he'd have been a lot like Bane, who inevitably lost a a bit of his edge once Azrael owned him in Batman #500. Bane didn't lose all of what made him great in the first place. He was still the tactical genius who had broken the Batman, after all. But he could never be that unstoppable force again.

Hobgoblin would still have been cold, calculating, and ruthless. But once his identity was revealed, he couldn't have pulled off something like his blackmail scheme at the country club. And he'd no longer be the villain that Spidey simply couldn't catch. He'd have to come at crime from a new angle.

(In a lot of ways, he'd have been exactly like Macendale, who didn't get respect because people knew who he really was. He'd show up and threaten people and they'd be like, "Screw you, Kingsley-Fisk-Leeds-Bannon..."



Pretty soon, I expect. I think they're in the 220s now...

I can understand that Marvel wanted to resolve the Hobgoblin identity when Stern left rather suddenly, if I'm not mistaken. Instead we got Macendale who was kind of interesting at first, when he wanted to be just as good as the original Hobbie, but then we got...Demogoblin. Damn, that was a tarnished legacy if anything. I can't say that I had a problem with Ned being Hobgoblin at the time it was revealed, I was pretty young back then, but I mean, at least we got the first Hobgoblin back thanks to Hobgoblin Lives.

I really, really hope they come soon. They have some Roger Stern issues, but I think it's about time his whole run was available.

[Metamorphosis]

The thing about Kingsley is he was already well-to-do. I mean, not that it wouldn't preclude him from wanting to make EVEN MORE MONEY by being the Hobgoblin, but he wasn't exactly hurting for cash. I mean, he was clearly a greedy sonuvagun, and that's more than enough motivation, but Ned, though, I could see really jumping at the chance at that kind of power. A struggling journalist in the big city ... with a wife to support and a future to plan for ... kicked around by an abusive boss all day despite constantly risking his neck to get good crime stories. Yeah, I could see that guy feeling like a kid in a candy store when he found all Osborn's toys.

Yeah, but even Leeds as written by Stern in his run pretty much took a bullet for his informant Nose Norton in that Cobra / Hyde two-parter.

It doesn't sound like the act of a devious villain-to-be, and I don't think Stern saw or wrote Leeds that way, at least in his run.

Of course, this is also back when characterizations didn't change on a dime to suit some hairbrained story, too.

[BlitheringToot]

Yeah, but even Leeds as written by Stern in his run pretty much took a bullet for his informant Nose Norton in that Cobra / Hyde two-parter.

Ah, but Norton wasn't standing in the way of something he wanted.

[David Walton]

I can understand that Marvel wanted to resolve the Hobgoblin identity when Stern left rather suddenly, if I'm not mistaken.

The chaotic way they ran the offices back then is kind of the charm and frustration of 80s comics. It's really weird to think that Roger Stern kept everyone guessing, even his editors. I believe PAD assumed Ned Leeds had been Stern's choice all along. DeFalco wanted Fisk to be Hobgoblin and Leeds to be the Rose at one point. The result is...bizarre, to say the least. Resolving the greatest mystery villain plot of the 1980s by having him offed in a flashback? Oy.

[Lasse]

The chaotic way they ran the offices back then is kind of the charm and frustration of 80s comics. It's really weird to think that Roger Stern kept everyone guessing, even his editors. I believe PAD assumed Ned Leeds had been Stern's choice all along. DeFalco wanted Fisk to be Hobgoblin and Leeds to be the Rose at one point. The result is...bizarre, to say the least. Resolving the greatest mystery villain plot of the 1980s by having him offed in a flashback? Oy.

It was a mess for sure. Still, there was so damn much good stuff during these days. Spider-Man had a golden age with Stern's run as a shining example, and then I'm just mentioning Spidey. We had no clones, no marriage to even have erased, no the Other, and no Parker industries.

[BlitheringToot]

The chaotic way they ran the offices back then is kind of the charm and frustration of 80s comics. It's really weird to think that Roger Stern kept everyone guessing, even his editors. I believe PAD assumed Ned Leeds had been Stern's choice all along. DeFalco wanted Fisk to be Hobgoblin and Leeds to be the Rose at one point. The result is...bizarre, to say the least. Resolving the greatest mystery villain plot of the 1980s by having him offed in a flashback? Oy.

I heard a rumor at some point that Kingsley was going to be the Rose and Fisk the Hobgoblin (can't remember whose idea it was). THAT would have actually made sense.

[Metamorphosis]

I heard a rumor at some point that Kingsley was going to be the Rose and Fisk the Hobgoblin (can't remember whose idea it was). THAT would have actually made sense.

Pretty sure that was who DeFalco intended to be under the masks.

Editor James Owsley wanted Foreigner for Hobgoblin, then assigned Peter David with the reveal in #289, who went with Ned, who had already been killed off in Spider-Man Vs Wolverine.