Betty Kane / Bette Kane Appreciation 2018

[Assam]

No interest in a Flamebird/Nightwing title (and the only way I wouldn't be pissed at its mere existence would be if the solo Nightwing book was cancelled)

With her brief appearance in 'Tec, it seems like Bette and possibly Harper would be part of the Knights when they come back together...but that just doesn't fit. Bruce is gonna be around no matter what, Tynion seems hellbent on forcing Kate into this book whether she's part of the team or not, Dumas is still around so JPV isn't going anywhere in the long term, Cass has a bunch of lingering plot threads and the garbage duo of Tim and Steph aren't going to be written out by Tynion obviously. The only one I could see maybe getting dropped is Luke, but even then he has his bromance with JPV and the fact that sending the only black guy to limbo while bringing in one or two more white girls wouldn't exactly look good.

What might make sense would be to continue with the current 'Tec set up until everything that's happened is resolved and the relationships Tynion wants to flesh out have been so. Then, when Batwoman and Batman Beyond are inevitably cancelled (I give them another year), replace them with books for Tim and Cass (The two best sellers of this lot), let Steph appear in those books, and have the new 'Tec team consist of Bruce, Kate, JPV, Luke, Bette and Harper. I don't really want the latter around but she's here.

[Oberon]

Ahhh, you've given me more detail and something to think about. I've always agreed to getting rid of the hopeless Robin crush too.

I like the idea of her being validated by others. I guess I would really like to see a backstory or hidden story about what happened to Bette after she stopped working with Kathy/Batwoman1. Was she sent back for any particular reason, to her parents? Who are her parents? Stuff like that.

[Oberon]

Well you bring up some good points Assam. Since I'm older and nostalgic-driven, and really out of the loop with the new (not really) characters, which don't thrill me that much, yet - -

I guess Bette's real place is with the Batwoman title, whether or not it fails again. Either character should also have some guest starring in other books, not just Batfamily. Why can't Flamebird visit the Titans? (not teen titans). I think Batwoman, Kate would be even edgier if she had to hang/work with any version of the JLA- I'd like to see that.

[Assam]

Well you bring up some good points Assam. Since I'm older and nostalgic-driven, and really out of the loop with the new (not really) characters, which don't thrill me that much, yet

Well Luke IS new, having debuted in 2013. And since I brought her up, Harper too only came around in 2011. Besides them though, yeah, the newest character in 'Tec is Kate.

I guess Bette's real place is with the Batwoman title

If you've seen that book's sales, you really shouldn't want that.

Why can't Flamebird visit the Titans? (not teen titans).

Because A) She currently doesn't know any of these characters, B) Titans has enough trouble giving attention to its main cast, let alone other characters and C) No interest in telling that story on the part of the writer.

I think Batwoman, Kate would be even edgier if she had to hang/work with any version of the JLA- I'd like to see that.

Back in 2009, Kate was going to be part of a second Justice League book penned by James Robinson. What happened instead was Cry for Justice.

[WonderScott]

Bette needs a place to shine and I think that means co-billing in a title. Otherwise, she tends to get sidelined and becomes secondary in terms of character growth. The book needs to be as much about her as the other character with whom she shares the title.

Arguably, past Batwoman, Dick is the Bat character she has the most meta-history with, even if that's not entirely true in the current reality of the characters. Thematically, I also like that they are of a similar age, means, and background. There's something to play off there potentially. Both have been the partner to a Bat and everything that has realistically and symbolically meant for the characters. It might be an interesting duo to explore in juxtaposition to the classic Batman and Robin and Batwoman and Flamebird (I can't bring myself to use Hawkfire) master and protégé storyline tropes. Nightwing has a little more experience being out from under the shadow of the Bat, but I see Bette with the drive and intelligence and experience to want to finally make a name for herself on her terms.

Gotham is a big place with a lot to explore and given their approximate ages of 21-25, I'd be curious to see a title that explorers the younger adult life in Gotham.

Just arguing my take on Bette and her upward direction based on where she's at now. Certainly not the only take on the character that might work.

[MajorHoy]

Why can't Bette (with a better codename than "Hawkfire"?) work with the Birds of Prey if she can't fit in Titans?

[wvchemteach]

Why can't Bette (with a better codename than "Hawkfire"?) work with the Birds of Prey if she can't fit in Titans?

Wouldn't be a bad idea if Birds of Prey wasn't a dumpster fire currently. Perhaps a different direction... start a new all girls team? Hawkfire/Flamebird, Zatanna, Stargirl, Artemis/Tigress. and Tula?

[Assam]

Wouldn't be a bad idea if Birds of Prey wasn't a dumpster fire currently.

It's true garbage...which makes me wonder why it's on your reading list. I notice some great DC books that aren't on that list...

Perhaps a different direction... start a new all girls team? Hawkfire/Flamebird, Zatanna, Stargirl, Artemis/Tigress. and Tula?

I'm totally down for DC's A-Force. Definitely not the line-up I'd go with though. Partially because a team with that line-up wouldn't last long, partially because I'm not a big fan of several of those characters and partially for lack of diversity since 4/5 are white and the fifth, I assume you're talking about the version based on the YJ animated Artemis, appeared only a couple times, was last seen brought back to life and doesn't really have any reason to become a vigilante, both in-story and out.

[Frontier]

Wouldn't be a bad idea if Birds of Prey wasn't a dumpster fire currently. Perhaps a different direction... start a new all girls team? Hawkfire/Flamebird, Zatanna, Stargirl, Artemis/Tigress. and Tula?

Zatanna seems kind of random given how young the rest of the roster skews. Maybe Black Alice?

I'm totally down for DC's A-Force. Definitely not the line-up I'd go with though. Partially because a team with that line-up wouldn't last long, partially because I'm not a big fan of several of those characters and partially for lack of diversity since 4/5 are white and the fifth, I assume you're talking about the version based on the YJ animated Artemis, appeared only a couple times, was last seen brought back to life and doesn't really have any reason to become a vigilante, both in-story and out.

Already got my own roster figured out .

[Assam]

Maybe Black Alice?

I know most people seem to hate her, but I adore Black Alice. Much more so than Zatanna, don't kill me.

Already got my own roster figured out .

Same.

[Oberon]

Ouch!

Don't hold back! Could it be Kate's new book doesn't do as well because its not enough like her previous one, the Rucka stuff, the art, the Maggie/Jacob/Bette plots?

- Maybe fans would rather have the previous types of stories. I know I liked them best, myself.

[Oberon]

Wow, I didn't realize that some folks don't appreciate all these side titles - but it seems for good reasons.

I've said a number of times that I read DC, most super hero books, consistently until after COIE. After that I rarely did. Occasional peeps.

So I'm locked into my previous glories, and when Bette becomes Flamebird post Crisis I did notice, was aware of the legacy connection and of course it makes sense.

Robin becomes Nightwing, a homage to Supes

Bette - - -THE ACTUAL FIRST Bat-girl becomes Flamebird.

So there is a lot that really should provide more than 'potential' story. both rich, rivaling families. And all the early silver age Bat stuff.

Mostly we have an editorial problem, who - according to you guys - focuses on the newer characters, with crappy results.

Maybe Bette needs to not mix with the toxic brew?

[Caivu]

Ouch!

Don't hold back! Could it be Kate's new book doesn't do as well because its not enough like her previous one, the Rucka stuff, the art, the Maggie/Jacob/Bette plots?

For the most part, I think it's because it's not how a lot of people were expecting it to be. It's still good, but it's character-focused much like her first series was, and not as action-oriented, which the marketing made it seem like it would be.

[Assam]

Could it be Kate's new book doesn't do as well because its not enough like her previous one?

I mean, I wouldn't read it either way. Even before a switch flipped in my brain and I decided I hated Kate, I did try the first issue of her current series and it bored the crap out of me. Kate, all my external feelings aside, bores me.

And I don't think I'm alone there. I think what we're seeing now is the real size of the audience for a Batwoman solo book, without any of the factors that allowed the Nu52 book to sell so well (The Nu52 early on letting a lot of titles sell better than they would otherwise, the hype of this book specifically, the fact that she was the first DC lesbian superhero getting her own book, crossovers etc.)

Wow, I didn't realize that some folks don't appreciate all these side titles - but it seems for good reasons.

Umm, what? Sales are in no way an indicator of quality. Several of the lower selling books aren't that great, no (and several of them have just been cancelled) but New Super-Man is one of the best comics of the decade and the only comic coming out right now from DC I truly love, Wildstorm: Michael Cray is fantastic, Doom Patrol is pretty interesting, I know Caivu and some others really like Mother Panic and Deathstroke, which is about to drop below 20,000, was nominated for an Eisner.

Mostly we have an editorial problem, who - according to you guys - focuses on the newer characters, with crappy results.

It's more that they focus on older, Silver Age characters and the characters they themselves cook up, with mixed results, and generally treat badly what came in between.

Maybe Bette needs to not mix with the toxic brew?

Try to never use that word when talking about DC. It became pretty infamous when DiDio said during the Nu52 that Wally West, Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown (The three most asked about characters at conventions) were "toxic".

The sad and funny thing about that part is that these days I think Steph has fallen a long way behind the other two, Kate maybe being more popular than her now.

For the most part, I think it's because it's not how a lot of people were expecting it to be. It's still good, but it's character-focused much like her first series was, and not as action-oriented, which the marketing made it seem like it would be.

Is it? Well I always prefer character focused stories to action oriented ones but...

[MajorHoy]

As for the current Batwoman series, I never bothered to buy an issue because I'm not a fan of the writer(s): Marguerite Bennett and James T Tynion IV (who was involved in the beginning).

I did buy/read the first seven issues of B&tBoP and didn't like either the art or the writing; tried it again for issues #11-13 (for Catwoman), but still didn't feel it was worth bothering with after that. (If they get a new writer who isn't on my "not worth it" list, I might take another look once again because I like the concept.)