Betty Kane / Bette Kane Appreciation 2018

[millernumber1]

That would only be good if Bette beat the crap out of Kate, destroyed the Colony's HQ and then proceeded to go join the reformed Knights.

Zero interest in seeing Bette as a villain.

Well. I know you think the Colony are pretty much all unredeemable villains, but I don't think that Tynion and Bennett see them that way. So I, at least, wouldn't have a problem with Kate and Bette trying to lead the Colony in a different direction.

[Assam]

Well. I know you think the Colony are pretty much all unredeemable villains

Correction: I think they're villains. Anyone short of guys like the Joker are redeemable in my eyes. It just requires working for it.

So I, at least, wouldn't have a problem with Kate and Bette trying to lead the Colony in a different direction.

Maybe that could work for Kate, but I just don't see it for Bette. Plus, considering what I've heard about their relationship, I think it could be kind of cool to have them at odds with each other, at least briefly.

[Caivu]

Correction: I think they're villains.

How are they villains? If anything, they're neutral.

Plus, considering what I've heard about their relationship, I think it could be kind of cool to have them at odds with each other, at least briefly.

I can't see an honest way that would work.

[millernumber1]

Correction: I think they're villains. Anyone short of guys like the Joker are redeemable in my eyes. It just requires working for it.

Maybe that could work for Kate, but I just don't see it for Bette. Plus, considering what I've heard about their relationship, I think it could be kind of cool to have them at odds with each other, at least briefly.

Eh. I'm not a fan of heros being at odds with heros. It's probably the biggest thing I would agree with peeps who dislike Steph's current plotline.

I don't think the Colony are villains - they're much more like anti-heros, similar to Amanda Waller. Unlike the actual villains, who are motivated pretty much by evil (selfishness, revenge) and delight in evil actions for their own sake, the Colony has always been motivated by duty and trying to save people. Their methods are often over the line, but they do take action to correct it (like firing the General). So I think they're antagonists, not villains.

[Assam]

How are they villains? If anything, they're neutral.

I disagree. We've been over this.

I can't see an honest way that would work.

Why not?

Eh. I'm not a fan of heroes being at odds with heroes.

I hate it when it's OOC and I'm REALLY tired of it being at the center of major events, but neither are what I'm thinking here. It'd be Kate leading the Colony, thinking that it's now the way she can do the most good, while Bette would disagree with her methods, siding with the Bats and joining the Knights.

I don't think the Colony are villains - they're much more like anti-heros, similar to Amanda Waller. Unlike the actual villains, who are motivated pretty much by evil (selfishness, revenge) and delight in evil actions for their own sake, the Colony has always been motivated by duty and trying to save people..

Because of what I know about you as a person, I completely get why you'd have that definition of a villain. But that's not how I see it. You mention Amanda Waller? I see her as a villain too, just one that has intentions which sometimes overlap with the heroes'.

[millernumber1]

I hate it when it's OOC and I'm REALLY tired of it being at the center of major events, but neither are what I'm thinking here. It'd be Kate leading the Colony, thinking that it's now the way she can do the most good, while Bette would disagree with her methods, siding with the Bats and joining the Knights.

Because of what I know about you as a person, I completely get why you'd have that definition of a villain. But that's not how I see it. You mention Amanda Waller? I see her as a villain too, just one that has intentions which sometimes overlap with the heroes'.

I could go with Bette being a Knight in those circumstances. I'm just not a fan of the idea of another Civil War type thing.

I do think Waller sometimes does become villainous. In the film (which yes, I know isn't a great representation, but John Ostrander loved Waller in it), when she murdered all her techs because they weren't cleared for it, I definitely felt it was pretty evil. But sometimes she's just doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, which I don't think is really similar to what the Joker does.

But we'll have to wait and see what Tynion and Bennett do with the Colony.

[Assam]

I do think Waller sometimes does become villainous. In the film (which yes, I know isn't a great representation, but John Ostrander loved Waller in it), when she murdered all her techs because they weren't cleared for it, I definitely felt it was pretty evil. But sometimes she's just doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, which I don't think is really similar to what the Joker does.

Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Evil.

[Caivu]

I disagree. We've been over this.

Have we?

I don't think I know what your definition of "villain" is.

It'd be Kate leading the Colony, thinking that it's now the way she can do the most good, while Bette would disagree with her methods, siding with the Bats and joining the Knights.

Why would Bette disagree with that? She's literally enrolled at West Point right now. The Colony is a military organization. One that still seems to be officially sanctioned.

[millernumber1]

Why would Bette disagree with that? She's literally enrolled at West Point right now. The Colony is a military organization. One that still seems to be officially sanctioned.

Uh. I thought that it was clear that they weren't sanctioned anymore, at least not since the end of Rise of the Batmen? I'm planning a big Tec reread in anticipation of #1000 late this year, so I haven't been doing a ton of rereading, but I thought I recalled something the General said about not being official anymore?

And even if they're not sanctioned, it's possible that Bette might agree with Bruce, that it doesn't have the right to operate on American soil. But then again, she was trained by the Crows (IF that's still continuity), so I'd say it's a fifty fifty chance, and I don't really know where she'd fall.

[Aahz]

Beast Boy is no longer an adult. He got deaged along with Raven back to being a teenager. Him getting together with Bette at this point would be pretty squicky.

That said, I didn't even ship them when they were both adults. I liked that they were just really good, platonic friends.

Even pre flashpoint it would have been a little squicky, since Beast Boy was always several years younger than the the other Titans, he would have been probably around 14 or 15 when he and Bette met the first time in the first incarnation of Titans West.

[Caivu]

Uh. I thought that it was clear that they weren't sanctioned anymore, at least not since the end of Rise of the Batmen? I'm planning a big Tec reread in anticipation of #1000 late this year, so I haven't been doing a ton of rereading, but I thought I recalled something the General said about not being official anymore?

I don't recall any specifics about them being shut down officially. I know the President was informed and ARGUS arrested a bunch of them, but that's not exactly the same thing. The ones who are left don't act like they're on the run.

[millernumber1]

I don't recall any specifics about them being shut down officially. I know the President was informed and ARGUS arrested a bunch of them, but that's not exactly the same thing. The ones who are left don't act like they're on the run.

Hmm. I'm betting we'll see more clearly in Batmen Eternal (woohoo!), but my current thinking on them is they're at the very least not without their enemies in the government.

[Assam]

Have we?

Pretty sure.

I don't think I know what your definition of "villain" is.

I admit that I don't have a strict definition of the term, just because every time I think of one that might work for me, I think of something that goes against it. So it's mostly a case by case basis for me.

Why would Bette disagree with that? She's literally enrolled at West Point right now. The Colony is a military organization. One that still seems to be officially sanctioned.

Since we're just talking about a hypothetical here, I'd have it revealed that she only joined West Point out of a desire to impress Kate (Actually I don't know if that isn't why; I didn't read Batwoman), but seeing what happens to Kate when she's put in the position of power would make her become disillusioned with the military and quit to join the Knights.

If you're like me, you may be reminded by this of the dumpster fire of a story that was Civil War II, the character assassination of Carol Danvers and the split between her and Kamala. I like to take bad stories and do them well though, so there'd be a few major differences. First, Kate would never cross the Moral Event Horizon; she'd realize the error of her ways before it got that far. (1.5 I guess is that Kate would fully admit she was wrong) Second, the two wouldn't be overly-hostile with each other until perhaps an emotional climax. Despite their differing views, their love for each other would still be clear. Third and perhaps more importantly, the two's relationship would be mostly repaired by the end of the story.

I think this could lead to some good development for the characters. Kate could lose some of her arrogance and learn to be more respectful towards those she works with and Bette, from the time she'd spend with the Knights and being the one to resolve the story, could show that she's Kate's equal; maybe better.

Even pre flashpoint it would have been a little squicky, since Beast Boy was always several years younger than the the other Titans, he would have been probably around 14 or 15 when he and Bette met the first time in the first incarnation of Titans West.

The two of them as partners though didn't start till Beast Boy's mini, by which point they were both adults.

Hmm. I'm betting we'll see more clearly in Batmen Eternal (woohoo!), but my current thinking on them is they're at the very least not without their enemies in the government.

Are you actually excited for Batmen Eternal or is this just you being the self-appointed champion of all Eternal series?

[Aahz]

The two of them as partners though didn't start till Beast Boy's mini, by which point they were both adults.

But they were iirc both members at the short lived Titans West team, in the late 70s. And that was also referenced in Beast Boy's mini (and iirc they tried to rebuild the team later on).

[Assam]

But they were iirc both members at the short lived Titans West team, in the late 70s. And that was also referenced in Beast Boy's mini (and iirc they tried to rebuild the team later on).

That's correct, but in-universe it had still been years since then. I don't think there's anything weird about the potential relationship just because they knew each other at a time when it would have been creepy.