SM/WW issue discussion (spoilers)

[Darius]

Have to say this was by a long shot the best characterization of Clark and Diana that Tomasi has yet managed. And we see some interesting tidbits int he action sequences

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Diana now appears invulnerable to bullets, even super-bullets

[misslane]

I have to ask!! Not tryng to start a fight!! But why do you think WW love for superman is coming off as bit obsessive?? As least to me she comes off as being very caring and sweet! Instead of this mean blood thirst B she often comes off as in other comics!! Or a silly girl, like she seemed in her own series the past three years.

I know you didn't ask me, and I know that my opinion needs to be taken with a grain of salt considering I'm not a fan of the couple, but I believe Wonder Woman's love for Superman comes across as "obsessive" not because of what she's saying or doing but because of what Superman, the art, and the story is not doing.

With Superman, the flow of care and affection feels imbalanced with Wonder Woman doting on him while he remains mostly impassive and self-absorbed. Now, given the tumult and drama in his life right now being self-absorbed is a natural response, but it still leaves scenes feeling like Diana is staring at him, reaching out to him, expressing emotion while he barely reacts. The art is also a problem. Mahnke's art has its strengths, but I don't feel it has the kind of fluidity that other artists have brought to these characters. Their faces seem to show less emotion and movement from scene to scene or panel to panel which makes them come across a bit robotic and stiff, in my opinion. Finally, the narrative itself in the title as a whole has mostly revolved around Superman, and this arc is no different. Consequently, Diana comes across like a supporting character whose focus and purpose in the story is to advance Superman's.

In short, there isn't enough balance with the story and characters and there isn't enough emotion and dynamism in the art. That's just my take on things, though.

[Aula_Magna]

Exactly, when you're in a relationship with someone, I think it goes without saying that you're supposed to be involved in that person's life, be loyal to him and look after him in some capacity but we have Wonder Woman wear his t-shirt, take on his occupations and verbalize her unconditional loyalty to him while Superman gives away nothing in return, he seems aloof, it's a one way street. Plus we know there's a new LL in his life and that he's gonna dump Wonder Woman soon which makes everything so much worse.

There's that random line of dialogue by Charles Soule that implies Wonder Woman's clingy and right now Wonder Woman happens to look a bit psycho and say things like "I'll be whatever you need me to be Superman, I'll be your flying horse, your bodyguard, I'll catch a bullet, I'll die for you, my love..", so yes she seems more obsessed than anything else.

[NYCER]

Say what? That was not the SUPERMAN/WONDER WOMAN I read earlier today. I think two folks here read a completely different book.

[chlj1]

Exactly, when you're in a relationship with someone, I think it goes without saying that you're supposed to be involved in that person's life, be loyal to him and look after him in some capacity but we have Wonder Woman wear his t-shirt, take on his occupations and verbalizing her unconditional loyalty to him while Superman gives away nothing in return, he just seems aloof so it's a one way street. Plus we know there's a new LL in his life and that he's gonna dump Wonder Woman soon which makes everything so much worse.

There's that random line of dialogue by Charles Soule that implies Wonder Woman's clingy and right now Wonder Woman looks a bit psycho and she's like "I'll be whatever you need me to be Superman, I'll be your flying horse, your bodyguard, I'll catch a bullet, I'll die for you, my love..", so yes she seems more obsessed than anything else.

I can't say I agree!! The preview from June was just away to draw attention to the story arc, we really know don't if he's going to break up with WW. Who is this new LL in his life?? I must of missed that!!

[Aula_Magna]

I can't say I agree!! The preview from June was just away to draw attention to the story arc, we really know don't if he's going to break up with WW. Who is this new LL in his life?? I must of missed that!!

A policewoman named Lee Lambert

[dumbduck]

I know you didn't ask me, and I know that my opinion needs to be taken with a grain of salt considering I'm not a fan of the couple, but I believe Wonder Woman's love for Superman comes across as "obsessive" not because of what she's saying or doing but because of what Superman, the art, and the story is not doing.

With Superman, the flow of care and affection feels imbalanced with Wonder Woman doting on him while he remains mostly impassive and self-absorbed. Now, given the tumult and drama in his life right now being self-absorbed is a natural response, but it still leaves scenes feeling like Diana is staring at him, reaching out to him, expressing emotion while he barely reacts. The art is also a problem. Mahnke's art has its strengths, but I don't feel it has the kind of fluidity that other artists have brought to these characters. Their faces seem to show less emotion and movement from scene to scene or panel to panel which makes them come across a bit robotic and stiff, in my opinion. Finally, the narrative itself in the title as a whole has mostly revolved around Superman, and this arc is no different. Consequently, Diana comes across like a supporting character whose focus and purpose in the story is to advance Superman's.

In short, there isn't enough balance with the story and characters and there isn't enough emotion and dynamism in the art. That's just my take on things, though.

As a fan of the pairing I have to say that I agree in general but not with this particular issue. But I'm aware that I'm somewhat out of the curve for Supes fans and I expect almost a fanfic level of romance. Which would make things unbearably sappy for 99% of the guys who buy this title.

I've also come to understand that the basics for Clark's characterization since the 52 began was as 'the silent strong type'. Trouble is that even then I think writers should have been able to show Clark appreciating, admiring, loving Diana more times.

But everytime not-fans of this pairing say that she's 'supporting character' I'm only reminded of how awesome she has been for him and how he's not been allowed to be even 1/10th as awesome and supportive back for her. I particularly would like for Clark to be able to help Diana with her problems even in the middle of the Thruth arc, but that's not Tomasi's plan. I hope the book lasts enough for Clark to be able to pay back at least a little bit of Diana's awesomeness.

And even then I hope for more of her presence in Superman's books. I wish that she would be much more present in SM and AC. I wish that after those armored cops beat the crap out of him in AC 42 that she would just drop out of the sky and kick the crap out of them. But then I guess there would be more accusations of 'sidekick', etc.

Exactly, when you're in a relationship with someone, I think it goes without saying that you're supposed to be involved in that person's life, be loyal to him and look after him in some capacity but we have Wonder Woman wear his t-shirt, take on his occupations and verbalizing her unconditional loyalty to him while Superman gives away nothing in return, he seems aloof, it's a one way street. Plus we know there's a new LL in his life and that he's gonna dump Wonder Woman soon which makes everything so much worse.

I'm sorry but... what is it to you as a not-fan of this pairing being worried about the 'LLs' in his life? 'Booty calls' and 'almost kisses'? And the Bruces and Steves in Diana's? You think us fans disagree with you? Nah, we agree completely. What do you want us to do? It's completely out of our hands. You know what? Go to Geoff and Snyder and other people and say that you as a not fan of this pairing don't want to see any more 3rd wheels. We'll give you our full support.

There's that random line of dialogue by Charles Soule that implies Wonder Woman's clingy and right now Wonder Woman happens to look a bit psycho and say things like "I'll be whatever you need me to be Superman, I'll be your flying horse, your bodyguard, I'll catch a bullet, I'll die for you, my love..", so yes she seems more obsessed than anything else.

As always I only have to say that Clark has not been worthy of Diana's awesomeness and I hope he steps up his game before she leaves him. You only make me see this with more detail everytime you complain. Stop. Please, stop. I can't take this anymore.

[DochaDocha]

The only part of this issue that particularly bugged me was that they went to interrogate the Suicide Squad, and WW didn't use the lasso. I mean, you have such few leads, use the danged thing. Other than that, not bad.

Also, I support the idea of giving WW invulnerability to bullets. For one, DC games tend to play up that aspect of her, and also, not being invulnerable to bullets puts you on the wimpy side of heavyweight class. It's not like the bullets-and-bracelets would therefore become obsolete, because there's always something stronger she'll need defense against, but if you want WW to be up there with the Supermans (Supermen?), Shazams, etc., you can't be killed by a lucky shot from some punk on the street.

[dumbduck]

The only part of this issue that particularly bugged me was that they went to interrogate the Suicide Squad, and WW didn't use the lasso. I mean, you have such few leads, use the danged thing. Other than that, not bad.

Also, I support the idea of giving WW invulnerability to bullets. For one, DC games tend to play up that aspect of her, and also, not being invulnerable to bullets puts you on the wimpy side of heavyweight class. It's not like the bullets-and-bracelets would therefore become obsolete, because there's always something stronger she'll need defense against, but if you want WW to be up there with the Supermans (Supermen?), Shazams, etc., you can't be killed by a lucky shot from some punk on the street.

Yep, now I can stop worrying about Fabok's suicide eagle.

[Sacred Knight]

As usual the characterization between Clark and Diana was great, but on the plot front, it needs to get moving. The identity of this antagonist needs to be revealed now. If you're gonna show his face, just tell us who he is. The teasing has gone on too long, and when you draw something out too long, people might stop caring. Unless of course we were supposed to recognize his face. But I sure didn't.

But again, its readable because of Clark and Diana's interactions. I was particularly enjoying the switcheroo taking place, where its now Diana so worried about Clark that he's concerned it'll take her out of a fight. In Soule's run, it was the other way around. Granted its completely understandable. It has to be almost as much of a shock to Diana as it is to Clark to see how vulnerable he's becoming. She's scared and its manifesting into an overprotectiveness. At least when Clark was being overprotective of her, there was the knowledge driven home to him that she was quite capable of taking care of herself. A man who took a nuclear blast for her and just needed a recharge now is being pierced by bullets. Based on how this is affecting her, I have every reason to believe that she's followed Clark to the White House despite him telling her not to.

[misslane]

As usual the characterization between Clark and Diana was great, but on the plot front, it needs to get moving. The identity of this antagonist needs to be revealed now. If you're gonna show his face, just tell us who he is. The teasing has gone on too long, and when you draw something out too long, people might stop caring. Unless of course we were supposed to recognize his face. But I sure didn't.

But again, its readable because of Clark and Diana's interactions. I was particularly enjoying the switcheroo taking place, where its now Diana so worried about Clark that he's concerned it'll take her out of a fight. In Soule's run, it was the other way around. Granted its completely understandable. It has to be almost as much of a shock to Diana as it is to Clark to see how vulnerable he's becoming. She's scared and its manifesting into an overprotectiveness. At least when Clark was being overprotective of her, there was the knowledge driven home to him that she was quite capable of taking care of herself. A man who took a nuclear blast for her and just needed a recharge now is being pierced by bullets. Based on how this is affecting her, I have every reason to believe that she's followed Clark to the White House despite him telling her not to.

But didn't they learn in Soule's run that they were stronger together regardless of who is worried about whom? I don't know. Even your description of the two "different" scenarios doesn't work for me, since it was Clark who ultimately takes on the overprotective controlling position in both Soule's and Tomasi's stories. He's still the one pushing Diana away even though he should know better by now. How is their relationship supposed to come off well, and like one based on trust and one that is mature, when your own description of the overprotective situation and your own speculation about Diana following Clark against his wishes illustrates the opposite?

[Lax]

Superman: "I don't want to dive into every fight thinking your focus is on me instead of the problem at hand. If you start worrying about watching my back every second, you not only give the bad guy the upper hand, you leave yourself open to getting hurt. and that's something i honestly can't deal with, Diana. you have to trust me to pull my own weight, okay?"

Superman, you're condition is a part of the "problem at hand". I love how you try to paint her concern as what's advantageous to the "bad guy" as oppose to your condition. How exactly did you plan on surviving the Suicide Squad's assault without her saving you? I especially love the sheer hypocrisy of claiming you "can't deal" with her getting hurt but apparently except her to deal with your vulnerable state just fine.

But she should trust that you can pull your own weight despite evidence to the contrary?

Wonder Woman: "I do and I will."

WHAT!?! O_o

Wonder Woman: "With your power levels changing--maybe this isn't the baseline... What if you get weaker?"

A valid concern.

Superman: "Guess we'll cross that bridge when and if we come to it."

Guess it's fine then.

Wonder Woman: "I don't want to lose you."

Another valid concern.

Superman: "You won't."

Wishful thinking is not an argument.

Wonder Woman: "These bullets Deadshot used... specially crafted, a strange caliber... what if it's just the beginning... what if they're building something even deadlier... something even bigger that can take you down?"

Superman: "I'm not worried about me. I'm worried about Lana and the others. The repercussions of all this-- has forced my hand. I need to take a trip."

I hate it when superheros, particularly Superman, start going down that creepy "I don't care about my life" train of logic. Their lives are worth worrying about, it has value.

Wonder Woman: "And I'm going with you."

Superman: "No. You're not."

You say that as if it were a command, and you have the authority to tell her what to do because?

Wonder Woman: "We have to stay together, a show of unity that--"

Superman: "This is my fight, Diana. Perception is everything right now. Guilt by association. I can't have you being tainted."

She's consistently been making valid points yet you have the audacity to cut her off to claim that... her public image is of more importance than your life. What isn't more important than your life, I wonder.

Wonder Woman: "I don't care about any of that. Your fight is my fight."

Superman: "I wish it could be, but it can't. You help me by staying in the light... free and clear of this."

It could be, you just don't want to for reasons you can't be bothered to explain.

How exactly is a crippled version of you better at saving Lana without Wonder Woman's help? Dead people can't save anybody.

Wonder Woman: "So that's it, no discussion?"

Superman: "I love you, but I'm going alone."

As if you could stop her.

Honestly she should just follow him anyway, he can't stop her and his recklessness has taken on a degree of insanity.

[Auguste Dupin]

Not bad. I mean, I make no secret that I find Superman/Wonder Woman to be the weakest Superman title right now, and the fight with the Suicide Squad did last too long for its own sake, but overall, it was perfectly fine. I really think "Truth" improved Tomasi's run, which until then was the definition of "mediocre". Normally, I'd complain about Diana's side of the DC Universe is lacking impact on this title, but considering what happens in her own title (i.e, nothing noteworthy), I won't try to pretend I have a problem with this.
As far as Clark telling Diana he can't follow her, well, it seemed obvious to me that the whole "staying in the light" thing was about him breaking into the White House which, y'know, is the kind of thing that tends to have you marked as a traitor, and he probably doesn't want her to be considered one as well. So it's not about her safety or anything, at least in this particular moment of the conversation.

[Tayswift]

Exactly, when you're in a relationship with someone, I think it goes without saying that you're supposed to be involved in that person's life, be loyal to him and look after him in some capacity but we have Wonder Woman wear his t-shirt, take on his occupations and verbalize her unconditional loyalty to him while Superman gives away nothing in return, he seems aloof, it's a one way street. Plus we know there's a new LL in his life and that he's gonna dump Wonder Woman soon which makes everything so much worse.

There's that random line of dialogue by Charles Soule that implies Wonder Woman's clingy and right now Wonder Woman happens to look a bit psycho and say things like "I'll be whatever you need me to be Superman, I'll be your flying horse, your bodyguard, I'll catch a bullet, I'll die for you, my love..", so yes she seems more obsessed than anything else.

seems like Tomasi has been reading too much Injustice. Wonder Woman doesn't has a life outisde of superman, it's really awful. then people ask why her fans doesn't like this pair, I just hope that earth one will be a smash hit and it will influence to end this disaster. another bland issue,only the final scene was good but can't save a whole pile of nothing

[Aula_Magna]

seems like Tomasi has been reading too much Injustice. Wonder Woman doesn't has a life outisde of superman, it's really awful. then people ask why her fans doesn't like this pair, I just hope that earth one will be a smash hit and it will influence to end this disaster. another bland issue,only the final scene was good but can't save a whole pile of nothing

Yeah Injustice Wonder Woman and Tomasi's Wonder Woman are cut from the same cloth aren't they in that they're both very violent and pompous, obsessed and pretty much ready to die for Superman. She's like Superman's suicide bride. Like Konan, who devoted her life to Nagato yet in his death bed, he gave his last words to naruto and not a single one to Konan who then went on to give her life to protect his legacy, and btw she failed.