SM/WW issue discussion (spoilers)

[Gaelforce]

And indeed, there is much to discuss.

So we take Wonder Woman, and we dress her in Iron Man armor and give her wolverine claws. Bullets and Bracelets - gone.

"Bullets and Braclets is lame. She gets hit by Kryptonians! Why does she need to block a bullet?"

Well first, the Flash not beating any of his rogues except Zoom in the first panel of every issue is also lame.

And second - the armor does not show how tough she is. ANYBODY can wear that armor. Not anybody could block every round from a gatling gun with a pair of bracelets.

The panel where she belts Harley. Honestly I wondered what the heck that was about. I needed a splash page to see Wonder Woman punching out HARLEY QUINN?

That's like giving a splash page to The Hulk hitting Batroc the Leaper!

Alas, I have to disagree with you here.

Was it the armor that blocked the bullets or is Diana's skin now bullet proof? Considering how many bulletholes there were in Superman, I'm going to have to assume that at least one bullet struck Diana's skin.

Don't get me wrong - I love bullets and bracelets, but the idea of a God of War who can be taken out by a 10 year old who surprises her with a pistol is just silly in this day and age.

Heck, Aquaman is now bulletproof!

The scale of combat has escalated over the decades and Diana needs to escalate with it if she's going to remain the top of the super powered heap.

Lasers and bracelets. Disintegration rays and bracelets. Omega beams and bracelets. Reserve them for higher end weaponry/attacks and do away with the goofy 'I can take a nuke to the face and a blow from Superman, but a knife or bullet can kill me' idea. It was great back when bullets were lethal to the average superhero, but when Batman can take autofire from point blank range to the chest and not slow down, Diana needs to keep up.

However, I do agree with you regarding Harley, and Deadshot should have been out like a light. She goes toe-to-toe with Zod and beats Faora, but we're supposed to pretend that the non-powered members of the Suicide Squad are an issue?

[Aula_Magna]

So, which is it? They were two separate beings or Doomsday caused Clark's filters to go off? Because these two arguments seem pretty incompatible from where I'm standing.
Seriously, Clark was turning into a monster after being infected by a virus. As you said, Clark and Doomsday are two separate beings fighting for dominance. Saying Clark is subconsciously longing for Lois because of something his Doomsday self did is like saying that Clark subconsciously wanted to break Steel's hand and to burn down everything in his path because he did those things as Doomsday. This proves nothing. The whole point of that arc is that Clark is fighting to prevent himself from becoming something he's not.
Plus, let's be real here, had Diana broken up with Clark because of the things his Doomsday self did, you guys would still be complaining that she's being mischaracterized.

From what I saw, that scene was the only one where Superdoom seemed to be in some kind of intermediate state where neither of them had complete control over Superman's body. From then onwards, they seemed to alternate between each other so go on and blame Soule for not maintaining consistency. When Superdoom was laying waste to villages, doomsday was stirring the wheel. It doesn't seem like Doomsday to call Lois in the middle of the night does it though

And I didn't say Wonder Woman should've broken up with him but you have to understand that being told by another woman what Lois told Diana would've rattled ANY woman, even the most confident ones. But Wonder Woman's loyalty to him is so unwavering, she doesn't question anything he does.

[brettc1]

Alas, I have to disagree with you here.

Was it the armor that blocked the bullets or is Diana's skin now bullet proof? Considering how many bulletholes there were in Superman, I'm going to have to assume that at least one bullet struck Diana's skin.

Don't get me wrong - I love bullets and bracelets, but the idea of a God of War who can be taken out by a 10 year old who surprises her with a pistol is just silly in this day and age.

Heck, Aquaman is now bulletproof!

The scale of combat has escalated over the decades and Diana needs to escalate with it if she's going to remain the top of the super powered heap.

Lasers and bracelets. Disintegration rays and bracelets. Omega beams and bracelets. Reserve them for higher end weaponry/attacks and do away with the goofy 'I can take a nuke to the face and a blow from Superman, but a knife or bullet can kill me' idea. It was great back when bullets were lethal to the average superhero, but when Batman can take autofire from point blank range to the chest and not slow down, Diana needs to keep up.

However, I do agree with you regarding Harley, and Deadshot should have been out like a light. She goes toe-to-toe with Zod and beats Faora, but we're supposed to pretend that the non-powered members of the Suicide Squad are an issue?

If they did strike her skin it could only have been her face or hands, since nothing else is uncovered.

But this indeed is another point, because I can't recall the time an ordinary mortal - either Deadshot or a ten year old - got the drop on Diana with a gun. She wasn't looking at him? So what. In the past I have seen her parry bullets while blind.

Diana doesn't need to race to the bottom along with others to try and create superhero stories that "make sense".

Either than or give up writing the Flash as ever having to break a sweat.

[anarki]

Batman's Contingency Plans for the Justice League, imagine a bullet or a fruit knife in WW's box.

[brettc1]

Batman's Contingency Plans for the Justice League, imagine a bullet or a fruit knife in WW's box.

Might as well put it in the box for Flash as well, then.

[anarki]

Might as well put it in the box for Flash as well, then.

Batman killed Reverse-Flash with a sword

[Tayswift]

No one's denying he had romantic intentions toward Lois when he was single in Metropolis. But there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing that suggests his feelings now for Diana are insincere because the former didn't develop into anything. Nothing that suggests that in the present he didn't simply move on when someone new caught his eye. It happens. It just so happens that this one developed. And now he's in love with Diana. This is all a perfectly normal sequence of events in regards to human relationships. The idea that Diana is being treated poorly by simply being an adult and not dwelling on this is puzzling to me.

if nothing says he moved on, anyone can say whatever they want. Lobdell showed that Clark still liked lois and after it Doomed confirmed too.
Wonder Woman recently was wondering about Trevor on JL, so I guess it is ok if both feel the same way.

No bullets and bracelets, just stands there while the bullets bounce off.

Smiling while Superman beats somebody up.

Even when Black Manta is conscious still does not even think to put the lasso of truth around him to get answers.

Superman/Who-the-hell-is-this-Woman?


PS - in profile Clark looks like the way Tomasi used to draw Major Disaster back in JLA.

Megan Fox, she thinks the lasso is ridiculous. Superman is brian austin green

it's muck better use the bracelets to counter attack than just let them bounce

[ssupes]

Great issue, it had everything:
A simple fun fight with great teamwork
Great feats for both characters even with one depowered
A great romantic scene between our two titular characters
A look into how much these two trust each other
A surprising ending
And a great addition to the "Wonder Woman hates necks" collection (joking)

And on a side note I am shocked that this thread has turned into a "Who Clark loves more" argument or criticisms over minute details or second guessing characters motivation, that has never happened before. [/SARCASM].

[brettc1]

Great issue, it had everything:
A simple fun fight with great teamwork
Great feats for both characters even with one depowered
A great romantic scene between our two titular characters
A look into how much these two trust each other.

I would argue they both appear depowered, because Wonder Woman is using less of her own powers and abilities. As for her performing a feat...sure, if you class She-Hulk knocking out Squirrel Girl as a feat...

Not sure how Clark shows trust in Diana, either. He fights alongside Batman all the time and doesn't stress over him leaving himself vulnerable because he is protecting his non-powered friend, but apparently he doesn't think Diana can handle that scenario.

[misslane]

I would argue they both appear depowered, because Wonder Woman is using less of her own powers and abilities.

Yeah, I thought it was strange how few iconic Wonder Woman powers/abilities were on display during this fight with these fairly mild opponents.

Not sure how Clark shows trust in Diana, either. He fights alongside Batman all the time and doesn't stress over him leaving himself vulnerable because he is protecting his non-powered friend, but apparently he doesn't think Diana can handle that scenario.

Exactly! Add to that the lack of respect it seemed Clark showed Diana when he wouldn't even do her the courtesy of letting her have her say about his plan or how he couldn't seem to even be bothered to leave Diana with a farewell hug or kiss, instead of a what looks like a cold brush off, before potentially putting himself in jeopardy, and their relationship's cracks seemed to be showing quite clearly.

[Aula_Magna]

Yeah Wonder Woman didn't look very impressive, Superman actually took out the 2 most powerful people in the suicide squad, manta and the reverse flash. But an argument can be made that she was burdened by having to protect him, just like he was when they battled the kryptonians

[Sacred Knight]

Not sure how Clark shows trust in Diana, either. He fights alongside Batman all the time and doesn't stress over him leaving himself vulnerable because he is protecting his non-powered friend, but apparently he doesn't think Diana can handle that scenario.

The fact they're romantically linked makes the situation different. It creates a whole other level of emotions and how one approaches the dangers inherent in their jobs. That's just the reality of the situation, to deny that and compare it to two friends is to be naïve.

As a hypothetical, say you and your wife are pretty skilled fighters and you have a best friend who is not. On two separate occasions you get into a scrap with some thugs, once with your wife and once with your best friend. Are you gonna be as concerned with your wife, who can fight, or your friend, who can't? Logic would dictate the latter. Emotions will always point toward the former. Point being, its inapplicable to compare Superman's feelings in a given situation when he's on an adventure with Batman as opposed to with Wonder Woman, when it comes to idea of protection. It has absolutely nothing to do with how he trusts Batman more than Diana or some other such nonsense.

[Tayswift]

I would argue they both appear depowered, because Wonder Woman is using less of her own powers and abilities. As for her performing a feat...sure, if you class She-Hulk knocking out Squirrel Girl as a feat...

Not sure how Clark shows trust in Diana, either. He fights alongside Batman all the time and doesn't stress over him leaving himself vulnerable because he is protecting his non-powered friend, but apparently he doesn't think Diana can handle that scenario.

dude Squirrel Girl is unbeatable. tell me when she-hulk beat Galactus on her own

well superman is hipocrite, wonderowman too

[brettc1]

The fact they're romantically linked makes the situation different.

Heh - that's a whole other thread...

It creates a whole other level of emotions and how one approaches the dangers inherent in their jobs. That's just the reality of the situation, to deny that and compare it to two friends is to be naïve.

Best friends. It's basically saying that Clark cannot be trusted to act responsibly with anybody on the team he is romantically associated with.

Which is ironic, because its the very same reason that Diana had Steve removed from the Justice League liason position. In fact, Clark's whole dismissal of her point of view in this issue is a very close parallel to the conversation she and Steve had when he was in hospital in JL #12.

As a hypothetical, say you and your wife are pretty skilled fighters and you have a best friend who is not. On two separate occasions you get into a scrap with some thugs, once with your wife and once with your best friend. Are you gonna be as concerned with your wife, who can fight, or your friend, who can't? Logic would dictate the latter. Emotions will always point toward the former. Point being, its inapplicable to compare Superman's feelings in a given situation when he's on an adventure with Batman as opposed to with Wonder Woman, when it comes to idea of protection. It has absolutely nothing to do with how he trusts Batman more than Diana or some other such nonsense.

He does not trust Batman more than Diana, he trusts HIMSELF more than Diana.

Superman goes into a fight with Batman against heavy hitters. He does not worry that he will leave himself vulnerable to attack because he is watching out for Bruce. He trusts Bruce will take care of himself and that they will work as a team.

But apparently, Diana is not as good at this as Clark, in his opinion. If she sees him in danger she will do something stupid that he apparently would not do while fighting with Bruce, and that will get her hurt.

The nonsense is him effectively saying "You're not as good a super-heroing as I am, so I'm preventing you messing up and me feeling guilty about not stopping you sooner."

[brettc1]

Yeah Wonder Woman didn't look very impressive, Superman actually took out the 2 most powerful people in the suicide squad, manta and the reverse flash. But an argument can be made that she was burdened by having to protect him, just like he was when they battled the kryptonians

Oh man...I can hear Vangaurd winding up already. LOL