SM/WW issue discussion (spoilers)

[Sacred Knight]

He does not trust Batman more than Diana, he trusts HIMSELF more than Diana.

Superman goes into a fight with Batman against heavy hitters. He does not worry that he will leave himself vulnerable to attack because he is watching out for Bruce. He trusts Bruce will take care of himself and that they will work as a team.

But apparently, Diana is not as good at this as Clark, in his opinion. If she sees him in danger she will do something stupid that he apparently would not do while fighting with Bruce, and that will get her hurt.

The nonsense is him effectively saying "You're not as good a super-heroing as I am, so I'm preventing you messing up and me feeling guilty about not stopping you sooner."

Nowhere is there even the slightest insinuation that Superman doesn't think Wonder Woman is as good a superhero as he is. Its not about trust, its about emotion. Its two entirely different dynamics and why its an ill comparison. There's nothing to suggest he doesn't trust Diana to get the job done and everything to suggest that its their love for one another that throws a wrench into the logistics behind a team up in a dangerous fight. It suggests that Superman understands that due to his love for her, he's compromised by default. So is she. That's where the possible vulnerability comes into play, not whether or not one trusts the other to get the job done. You're pulling that out of nowhere. You're looking for logic where there is none and comparisons among friends and allies that lack the key component that make this situation incomparable: romantic love. I mean come on man, it would almost support the stereotype that comic fans have never been in a romantic relationship in their entire lives, but I know you're married so you have to get it. The Batman comparison is completely worthless in this scenario. Until a day when the Superman/Batman shippers get their wish, that is.

[brettc1]

Nowhere is there even the slightest insinuation that Superman doesn't think Wonder Woman is as good a superhero as he is. Its not about trust, its about emotion. Its two entirely different dynamics and why its an ill comparison. There's nothing to suggest he doesn't trust Diana to get the job done and everything to suggest that its their love for one another that throws a wrench into the logistics behind a team up in a dangerous fight. It suggests that Superman understands that due to his love for her, he's compromised by default. So is she. That's where the possible vulnerability comes into play, not whether or not one trusts the other to get the job done. You're pulling that out of nowhere. You're looking for logic where there is none and comparisons among friends and allies that lack the key component that make this situation incomparable: romantic love. I mean come on man, it would almost support the stereotype that comic fans have never been in a romantic relationship in their entire lives, but I know you're married so you have to get it. The Batman comparison is completely worthless in this scenario. Until a day when the Superman/Batman shippers get their wish, that is.

Well you are at least right in saying that there is no logic here.

First - yes I am married. That being the case, I was asked once to define romance - I said it was an acronym meaning the "Restriction Of Mental Acuity Necessitating Cognitive Errors."

Second - one might not be able to control who one loves, but one can certainly be expected to be in control of what one does about it.

Third - everything you just said above merely confirms Batman's misgivings about the relationship in the first place. Namely that it compromises the objectivity of one or both of them and makes them less effective. And if Superman is compromised as you say then he is compromised no matter what his powers and abilities are, or Diana's. In which case why should the relationship even continue?

If it's about emotion, then it's about their emotions getting in the way of them doing their jobs as superheroes.

You just contradicted your whole point by saying he thinks they are made less effective because of their relationship - that because of it they cannot be trusted to get the job done as much as if they were not involved. At least that is what Clark thinks. Diana clearly disagrees, but he said her opinion didn't matter and walked off.

[Lax]

What is the reality?

That is the first and most important question to ask. Only when one can accurately perceive reality can one start to fix an issue. Superman is extremely concerned about Wonder Woman's safety, but are his concerns justified or paranoia? The "reality" is that Wonder Woman has saved him more times than he has saved her. The Doomsday virus, siren's song, Zod/Faora, Circe, Cheetah, Magog and now the Suicide Squad, her track record is simply better than his. By objective reality, if Superman is more concerned about Wonder Woman's safety than his own then that concern is not justified but rather a byproduct of paranoia.

Thus a second question begins to emerge. Why is Superman more concerned about Wonder Woman's safety than his own? Because he places little-to-no value in his own life, other people's lives matter, his does not. This explains why he can't bear to see her in any form of danger yet hypocritically expects her to suffer the sight of his vulnerability and not take action. Because he places so little value in his own life, he does not respect the idea that Wonder Woman places it at a high value.

It's not that he loves Wonder Woman too much, it's that he loves himself too little. I think the problem stems from Superman's unwillingness to recognize the value of his own life.

Wonder Woman: "We have to stay together, a show of unity that--"
Superman: "This is my fight, Diana. Perception is everything right now. Guilt by association. I can't have you being tainted."
Wonder Woman: "I don't care about any of that. Your fight is my fight."
Superman: "I wish it could be, but it can't. You help me by staying in the light... free and clear of this."

She is concerned about his life while he is concerned about her reputation. In his mind, her reputation is worth more than his life. To say nothing of that fact that his chances of saving Lana are exponentially better with Wonder Woman than without her, which is yet another reality he's ignoring.

By contrast Wonder Woman's perception is an accurate reflection of reality, he is in a weakened state, thus the extra protectiveness on her part is designed to cover his shortcomings. She's not telling him to stay safe while she goes out to save Lana even though she has far more evidence to back that suggestion than Superman. Instead she only asks to come with, yet in order to satisfy his psychological needs he recharacterizes her justified concern as a lack of faith.

He's the poster boy of the "disposable male", whatever this is, it isn't heroism.

[brettc1]

Another possibility is of course that Superman has bought into his own hype. He simply doesn't believe at this point he can be killed.

[Stone Cold]

No bullets and bracelets, just stands there while the bullets bounce off.

What's wrong with her being invulnerable to bullets? Why is it so important for her to deflect bullets with her bracelets? It might have been cool in 40's when WW debuted. It isn't special anymore, every street character with little bit of speed knocking bullets out of air.

[Aula_Magna]

Another plausible explanation is that Superman is just an obnoxiously competitive character. In-story, he's the most loving, caring, compassionate man on the planet but the character of Superman is, to its own detriment, colored by his fans' insatiable greed. His "compassion", his "lovingness", his "heroism" is just another area where Superman needs to excel, be the BEST, the MOST, the ULTIMATE, and writers have long abandoned reason to satisfy that criterium

[brettc1]

What's wrong with her being invulnerable to bullets? Why is it so important for her to deflect bullets with her bracelets? It might have been cool in 40's when WW debuted. It isn't special anymore, every street character with little bit of speed knocking bullets out of air.

The argument here seems to be that Wonder Woman did it first and then a whole lot of others copied her original idea, so she shouldn't do it any more.

Even if that made sense, I don't think there are a lot of characters doing it. And now certainly one less. In the world of superheroes standing there while bullets bounce off her makes her less singular, not more impressive.

[Auguste Dupin]

She is concerned about his life while he is concerned about her reputation. In his mind, her reputation is worth more than his life. To say nothing of that fact that his chances of saving Lana are exponentially better with Wonder Woman than without her, which is yet another reality he's ignoring.

That's ignoring that, in the exchange you're mentionning, he's talking specifically about what he's about to do next, which is break into the White House to confront the President about the Suicide Squad ( "I need to take a trip- And I'm coming with you-No, you're not" and then, what you quoted).He even looks at the snowball with the White House in it to hammer the point home. No matter how weak he is, he's still strong enough to do that without putting his life in danger (as proved by the book itself). Therefore, his life isn't a concern right now. So, it's not that her reputation is worth more than his life, it's that having her following him would taint it for no good reason. Diana talks about his safety because she doesn't know that (the reason being, of course, that he doesn't tell her on purpose so that she won't try to stop or follow him).

[Stone Cold]

The argument here seems to be that Wonder Woman did it first and then a whole lot of others copied her original idea, so she shouldn't do it any more.

Even if that made sense, I don't think there are a lot of characters doing it. And now certainly one less. In the world of superheroes standing there while bullets bounce off her makes her less singular, not more impressive.

What's wrong with her being invulnerable to bullets? I mean there are plenty of characters who are vulnerable to bullets and knives, why is it important that Wonder Woman must be vulnerable to these thug weapons? These qualities that you are praising make her look weak and incompetent. Her deflecting bullets doesn't make her look good or badass, she is the only power house who can be harmed street thugs.

There is no reason for this weakness to stay other than nostalgia.

[anarki]

What's wrong with her being invulnerable to bullets? I mean there are plenty of characters who are vulnerable to bullets and knives, why is it important that Wonder Woman must be vulnerable to these thug weapons? These qualities that you are praising make her look weak and incompetent. Her deflecting bullets doesn't make her look good or badass, she is the only power house who can be harmed street thugs.

There is no reason for this weakness to stay other than nostalgia.

Maybe it's a good reason to cover her up from head to toe.
She should wear a full-armor with a Batman-style bulletproof helmet because she's facing greater danger as a melee dps.
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[brettc1]

What's wrong with her being invulnerable to bullets? I mean there are plenty of characters who are vulnerable to bullets and knives, why is it important that Wonder Woman must be vulnerable to these thug weapons? These qualities that you are praising make her look weak and incompetent. Her deflecting bullets doesn't make her look good or badass, she is the only power house who can be harmed street thugs.

There is no reason for this weakness to stay other than nostalgia.

So what you're saying is the Superman mythos should dump Kryptonite.

Abd its an interesting thing - folks complain about how she could presumably be hurt by a bullet. But how many times has that actually happened in 75 years from a regular gun?

It takes no special skill to stand there in bulletproof armor. That's an advertisement for how tough the armor is, not Diana. Armor that waz given to her, by the way. Its not like she did a Tony Stark and made it herself.

[misslane]

It takes no special skill to stand there in bulletproof armor. That's an advertisement for how tough the armor is, not Diana. Armor that waz given to her, by the way. Its not like she did a Tony Stark and made it herself.

I'm curious, if it was such a priority during Soule's run to acquire armor to face Zod and Faora, why isn't Diana considering using invisible chariots or getting Clark some armor this time around given his status as a depowered target?

[Sacred Knight]

I never contradicted myself brett, because I never said that Superman thinks that they're not effective as a team. I never said that, and further more Superman never states as such within the text. Neither does he say he doesn't trust the two of them to get the job done together. He had a concern in the aftermath of one fight and promptly addressed it and they hash it out (granted its quick, as Diana's response is quick and matter of fact). Almost like two responsible superheroes might do. For all your bold text you're not saying anything supported by the story. Here's what actually happened: He asks her to trust him to pull his own weight in his depowered state. She says she will. That's it. Then theu moved on to the White House dialogue. A scene in which Clark doesn't want her go with for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with trust (whether he's right or not I'm making no argument for or against at this time). Much ado about nothing once again. Now, that's not the say the issue of trust isn't going to come up soon. Probably in a big way. But in what capacity is yet to be seen.

Oh, and everything else I said involving emotion and the dynamic of a romantic relationship was directly related to dismissing the comparison between them and Batman and Superman's relationship and teamups.

In regards to the bullets, why is this being discussed like she'll never do the bullet and bracelets thing again? I mean, do we honestly think she's going to wear this particular costume forever, or that the move won't show itself again elsewhere even in this costume? Its not even like Tomasi drew specific attention to her not using the bracelets, so its not like that was a specific statement against it either. It was, to this point, an isolated thing. I don't see the hubbub. Its not like he said, or had it implied anywhere in the text, that the bullets and bracelets are stupid and she shouldnt' do it anymore.

[anarki]

So what you're saying is the Superman mythos should dump Kryptonite.

Abd its an interesting thing - folks complain about how she could presumably be hurt by a bullet. But how many times has that actually happened in 75 years from a regular gun?

It takes no special skill to stand there in bulletproof armor. That's an advertisement for how tough the armor is, not Diana. Armor that waz given to her, by the way. Its not like she did a Tony Stark and made it herself.

Kryptonite is rare, but a bullet or a knife is NOT.
Vulnerable to bullets is one of the main reasons of her inconsistency.
Comics are comics, right, but still need some logic. She was knocked out by crow bars, needles. That's why her enemies were Nazy soldiers, street thugs. It's LOGICAL because mortals can be fatal to her.
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230p1.jpg'cheetah was a crazy woman in dress, no magical power'

She don't fight street thugs now, so she doesn't need this kind of weekness, because it's so easy to find a way to neutralize her(Batman would be happy).
But it doesn't mean that she need no skills. There're plenty of magical weapons around, still threatening her life. For example, Luthor's sister is using a pistol from Apokolips, I think that could be a threat to WW, or the sword Deathstroke is using forged by Hephaestus. Bulletproof, skillful, no contradiction.
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Oh, I forgot to mention, Deathstroke will combat against Diana Next Wendsday.

[Stone Cold]

So what you're saying is the Superman mythos should dump Kryptonite.

Abd its an interesting thing - folks complain about how she could presumably be hurt by a bullet. But how many times has that actually happened in 75 years from a regular gun?

It takes no special skill to stand there in bulletproof armor. That's an advertisement for how tough the armor is, not Diana. Armor that waz given to her, by the way. Its not like she did a Tony Stark and made it herself.

Kryptonite is not something that everyone can get, are you seriously comparing alien radioactive rock to tiny metal objects owned by billions of people?

What skills are you talking about? Bullet deflecting is done by every street level character with little bit of speed. There are characters who run faster than light, travel from galaxy to galaxy within few moments, tank nuclear explosions, and you think deflecting bullets is impressive?

Wasn't she hit by a bullet in issue if sensation comics where she forget she had super speed?

I have never seen any powerhouse with these stupid limitations, can she survive a bullet to head? Can she fly? Can she survive in space? Is she captain America level or powerhouse?


You haven't given a valid reason why she should be vulnerable to bullets and knives other than it used to be.