SM/WW issue discussion (spoilers)

[brettc1]

Kryptonite is rare, but a bullet or a knife is NOT.

For something that is rare, it turns up an awful lot.

Vulnerable to bullets is one of the main reasons of her inconsistency.
Comics are comics, right, but still need some logic. She was knocked out by crow bars, needles. That's why her enemies were Nazy soldiers, street thugs. It's LOGICAL because mortals can be fatal to her.
Attachment 24938
Attachment 24940'cheetah was a crazy woman in dress, no magical power'

She don't fight street thugs now, so she doesn't need this kind of weAkness, because it's so easy to find a way to neutralize her(Batman would be happy).
But it doesn't mean that she need no skills. There're plenty of magical weapons around, still threatening her life. For example, Luthor's sister is using a pistol from Apokolips, I think that could be a threat to WW, or the sword Deathstroke is using forged by Hephaestus. Bulletproof, skillful, no contradiction.
Attachment 24942

The contradiction only exists because writers cannot be bothered to explain it. And it's not that hard. I could give you a plausible explanation in thirty seconds that has nothing to do with physics.

The biggest flaw in the argument is people saying "How tough can she be if you can kill her with a bullet."

Well, nobody ever has, so it's not an issue. I've seen Spider-Man go through walls without breaking his back, but a bullet would still hurt him. The real problem is not too little realism but too little imagination.

[Stone Cold]

For something that is rare, it turns up an awful lot.



The contradiction only exists because writers cannot be bothered to explain it. And it's not that hard. I could give you a plausible explanation in thirty seconds that has nothing to do with physics.

The biggest flaw in the argument is people saying "How tough can she be if you can kill her with a bullet."

Well, nobody ever has, so it's not an issue. I've seen Spider-Man go through walls without breaking his back, but a bullet would still hurt him. The real problem is not too little realism but too little imagination.

Come on Brett, we both know why Wonder Woman is not seen as powerhouse because of obvious street level weakness.

There is nothing wrong thinking she can be taken out with a bullet when she has never been shown to tank bullet.

Comparing her to Spider-man doesn't do her any favors. He is street level character after all and this is something you are aware of.

[brettc1]

Kryptonite is not something that everyone can get, are you seriously comparing alien radioactive rock to tiny metal objects owned by billions of people?

It's a weakness and it turns up over and over. We just had a story where the ENTIRE PLANET was coated in the stuff.

What skills are you talking about? Bullet deflecting is done by every street level character with little bit of speed. There are characters who run faster than light, travel from galaxy to galaxy within few moments, tank nuclear explosions, and you think deflecting bullets is impressive?

Can you do it? And again, you're just saying the because people copied her idea she should not do it anymore. Where are all these instances of bullet deflection?

Batman wearing a cape is cool. The TARDIS looking like a police box is cool. Bullet deflection is cool. That is all the reason you need right there.

Wasn't she hit by a bullet in issue if sensation comics where she forget she had super speed?

I have never seen any powerhouse with these stupid limitations, can she survive a bullet to head? Can she fly? Can she survive in space? Is she captain America level or powerhouse?

Martian Manhunter can be killed with a bucket of gasoline and a match, both of which are easier to get than bullets and a gun.

How is it a limitation if you cannot actually shoot her because she is so skilled?

You haven't given a valid reason why she should be vulnerable to bullets and knives other than it used to be.

There's no valid reason why Superman gets the power level he has from Earth's yellow sun either. Don't believe that pseudo-scientific gibberish they sell you - it's utter rubbish. As far as legitimate science is concerned Superman's powers are basically magical. But it's fun to go along with, so why bother bringing reality into it.

[brettc1]

Come on Brett, we both know why Wonder Woman is not seen as powerhouse because of obvious street level weakness.

There is nothing wrong thinking she can be taken out with a bullet when she has never been shown to tank bullet.

Comparing her to Spider-man doesn't do her any favors. He is street level character after all and this is something you are aware of.

Comparing Spider-Man to Nightwing is in itself ludicrous. He can race electrical discharges and lift and throw cars. Somebody who can lift 10 ten tons over his head is not street level.

But the point is, if he can be hurt by a bullet he should have died taking some of the hits we have seen him take over the years. But folks don't want a bullet proof Spider-Man because it is hellacool to see him diving through a rain of copper jacketed death and come out unscathed.

Folks don't see her as a powerhouse? When did that happen? If they don't want to see her that way it can only be because either DC doesn't write her like that often enough of they do and folks choose to ignore that reality for some personal reason.

Though personally I did rather like her explanation to Steve in Smallville Season 11.

[anarki]

I've seen Spider-Man go through walls without breaking his back, but a bullet would still hurt him. The real problem is not too little realism but too little imagination.

But she's not a spider-man level character, she can take a nuke on her face.
Go through walls without breaking his back, that's Batman

[Stone Cold]

It's a weakness and it turns up over and over. We just had a story where the ENTIRE PLANET was coated in the stuff.

I don't see thugs running around with chunk of kryptonite, it's always luthor who uses kryptonite to harm superman. I ask again how is how alien radioactive rock comparable to tiny metal objects.

Can you do it? And again, you're just saying the because people copied her idea she should not do it anymore. Where are all these instances of bullet deflection?

Is that what you think? She shouldn't be doing it because it makes her look weak. Name me one powerhouse that needs to constantly deflect bullets? Why are there so many doubts about wonder woman's powerhouse status when these things are basics? Spider-man has caught bullets in his web, daredevil has knocked bullet with his red stick, green arrow has shot bullets out if air with his arrows, batman has blocked machine gun fire with his gauntlet

Batman wearing a cape is cool. The TARDIS looking like a police box is cool. Bullet deflection is cool. That is all the reason you need right there.

Bullet deflection is cool when it is done by street level character not a powerhouse. All examples you have given so far involve street level characters which says a lot Blut your opinion if Wonder Woman.

Martian Manhunter can be killed with a bucket of gasoline and a match, both of which are easier to get than bullets and a gun.

Martian manhunter cannot be killed with bucket of gasoline, it is psychological weakness not physical.

How is it a limitation if you cannot actually shoot her because she is so skilled?

It is limiting her powerhouse durability that's why there are doubts about wonder woman's powerhouse status.

There's no valid reason why Superman gets the power level he has from Earth's yellow sun either. Don't believe that pseudo-scientific gibberish they sell you - it's utter rubbish. As far as legitimate science is concerned Superman's powers are basically magical. But it's fun to go along with, so why bother bringing reality into it.

This has nothing to with what we are discussing.

[Stone Cold]

Comparing Spider-Man to Nightwing is in itself ludicrous. He can race electrical discharges and lift and throw cars. Somebody who can lift 10 ten tons over his head is not street level.

But the point is, if he can be hurt by a bullet he should have died taking some of the hits we have seen him take over the years. But folks don't want a bullet proof Spider-Man because it is hellacool to see him diving through a rain of copper jacketed death and come out unscathed.

Folks don't see her as a powerhouse? When did that happen? If they don't want to see her that way it can only be because either DC doesn't write her like that often enough of they do and folks choose to ignore that reality for some personal reason.

Though personally I did rather like her explanation to Steve in Smallville Season 11.

Spider-Man is high street level character, the day he can tank nukes and survive being pummeled by 100 toner then it would look silly for him to be hurt by bullets. Yeah it looks cool when Spider-man is dodging bullets because he is a street level character not a powerhouse.

DC doesn't write her as powerhouse by putting limitations on her powers. There is a battle in space? Oh cr*p let me get my space suit. Let me block bullets because apparently I have weakness to sharp objects.

Smallville? Oh yeah that comic based on TV show which turned her into street level character.

[Stone Cold]

Kryptonite is superman's weakness period. You don't have to give it certain shape to harm superman. And who said Wonder Woman can't be harmed by kryptonite? All you have to do is make a pointy object using kryptonite and you are good to go because sharp objects are such a problem for her(apparently).

[DochaDocha]

The problem with being vulnerable to bullets these days is that it's begging to be nitpicked. So in theory, a .38 could kill her, but being punched in the head by diamond-crushing force doesn't? Just get rid of that vulnerability. Anyway, it's still a world of fantastic weapons and powers, so just translate the bullets and bracelets to something else, like Apokoliptan bullets and bracelets, or magic energy blasts from beyond and bracelets. Or introduce another wrinkle, like she blocks the bullets in order to stop them in their tracks and prevent stray bullets from hitting bystanders. I don't know. A little creativity will go a long way.

If you like the tradition of bullets and bracelets, I 100% understand why you'd want to keep it, but the problem it creates as described above aren't worth having to uphold the tradition, if you ask me. Anyway, it's just implicit to me that if you can take a punch from Doomsday, you aren't going to be badly hurt (if at all) if you got shot or stabbed by an ordinary real world weapon.

[brettc1]

I never contradicted myself brett, because I never said that Superman thinks that they're not effective as a team. I never said that, and further more Superman never states as such within the text. Neither does he say he doesn't trust the two of them to get the job done together. He had a concern in the aftermath of one fight and promptly addressed it and they hash it out (granted its quick, as Diana's response is quick and matter of fact). Almost like two responsible superheroes might do. For all your bold text you're not saying anything supported by the story. Here's what actually happened: He asks her to trust him to pull his own weight in his depowered state. She says she will. That's it. Then theu moved on to the White House dialogue. A scene in which Clark doesn't want her go with for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with trust (whether he's right or not I'm making no argument for or against at this time). Much ado about nothing once again. Now, that's not the say the issue of trust isn't going to come up soon. Probably in a big way. But in what capacity is yet to be seen.

I will agree to this because I am staggeringly honest.

[brettc1]

The problem with being vulnerable to bullets these days is that it's begging to be nitpicked. So in theory, a .38 could kill her, but being punched in the head by diamond-crushing force doesn't? Just get rid of that vulnerability. Anyway, it's still a world of fantastic weapons and powers, so just translate the bullets and bracelets to something else, like Apokoliptan bullets and bracelets, or magic energy blasts from beyond and bracelets. Or introduce another wrinkle, like she blocks the bullets in order to stop them in their tracks and prevent stray bullets from hitting bystanders. I don't know. A little creativity will go a long way.

If you like the tradition of bullets and bracelets, I 100% understand why you'd want to keep it, but the problem it creates as described above aren't worth having to uphold the tradition, if you ask me. Anyway, it's just implicit to me that if you can take a punch from Doomsday, you aren't going to be badly hurt (if at all) if you got shot or stabbed by an ordinary real world weapon.

The problem of a bullet vulnerability is the same problem as Thor being an actual god.

In other words, it doesn't exist unless the person reading makes it a problem.

Just in case nobody spotted it, radioactive spider-bites won't give you super powers, either.

[brettc1]

I don't see thugs running around with chunk of kryptonite, it's always luthor who uses kryptonite to harm superman. I ask again how is how alien radioactive rock comparable to tiny metal objects.

If the radioactive rock turns up all the time then it is comparable.

Is that what you think? She shouldn't be doing it because it makes her look weak. Name me one powerhouse that needs to constantly deflect bullets?

Wonder Woman

Why are there so many doubts about wonder woman's powerhouse status when these things are basics? Spider-man has caught bullets in his web, daredevil has knocked bullet with his red stick, green arrow has shot bullets out if air with his arrows, batman has blocked machine gun fire with his gauntlet

When these guys can stand in front of a half a dozen guys with machine guns for 10 seconds and do it I will be impressed.

Bullet deflection is cool when it is done by street level character not a powerhouse. All examples you have given so far involve street level characters which says a lot Blut your opinion if Wonder Woman.

My opinion is that Wonder Woman can be Wonder Woman without being Supergirl with different hair and less powers.

Martian manhunter cannot be killed with bucket of gasoline, it is psychological weakness not physical.

Still a weakness.

t is limiting her powerhouse durability that's why there are doubts about wonder woman's powerhouse status.

There are doubts because a lot of folks want certain characters at the top of the power pyramid and most of those folks don't want Wonder Woman up there making male characters look bad because of outdated gender perceptions.

This has nothing to with what we are discussing.

It has everything to do with it. Bullets hurting Wonder Woman when she can take a punch from Doomsday seems like a contradiction, but so is any kind of scientific reason behind sun powered Kryptonians and most of the things Flash does. People go with it because its comic books are meant to be fun, not expositions on physics.

[DochaDocha]

It has everything to do with it. Bullets hurting Wonder Woman when she can take a punch from Doomsday seems like a contradiction, but so is any kind of scientific reason behind sun powered Kryptonians and most of the things Flash does. People go with it because its comic books are meant to be fun, not expositions on physics.

People don't want comic books to be beholden to real world physics, but they still want the logic to be internally consistent, or at least seemingly internally consistent. If you show WW take a full DD punch to the head and then shake it off, but then in another panel show her in critical condition because a thug teenager shot her in the head, that's going to make people WTF. You're just better off avoiding those situations. I totally advocate for comics to be written in less sloppy way so that fans aren't wondering why something seemingly powerful doesn't kill a person but something seemingly ordinary can. It's a juxtaposition I simply care very little for.

Also, it almost sounds like you're saying let's justify bad writing by citing examples of other bad writing, which ends up just burying us deeper into the cesspool.

It's not like I demand realistic fiction. It's just I have a hard time accepting that kind of writing. Part of the problem, I think, is that writers aren't really aware of relative destructiveness in the real world, and are content to perpetuate silly tropes. For instance, I think everyone knows the dangers that knives and bullets pose. We associate those with killing instruments, because that's what they do. But I really believe that a lot of writers are just too dismissive of blunt objects. Like, for instance, I almost get the feeling some people would rather be hit by a wrecking ball than being shot. I'm even more confident that some people think they're more likely to survive getting thrown through a windshield than being stabbed. That's basically how I feel when people say that getting punched by Doomsday should be relatively easy to shake off whereas a GSW to the temple would cause critical, if not lethal, injury.

[Stone Cold]

If the radioactive rock turns up all the time then it is comparable.

It does not, do you even read Superman stories? Kryptonite was not a factor in Mongul arch, or horrorville and it hasn't shown up in truth.

Wonder Woman

That's why there are doubts and inconsistencies powerhouse.

When these guys can stand in front of a half a dozen guys with machine guns for 10 seconds and do it I will be impressed.

Batman has stood against hundreds of thugs with auto-machines and knives.

My opinion is that Wonder Woman can be Wonder Woman without being Supergirl with different hair and less powers.

Why can't Wonder Woman be Wonder Woman without copy street level weakness? I mean Batman and Captain Ameruca were vulnerable to bullets before Wonder Woman?

Still a weakness.

Doesn't harm him physically. It breaks down his mind because of what happened to his race. Are you saying Wonder Woman is so scared of bullets that her durability is harmed by it?

There are doubts because a lot of folks want certain characters at the top of the power pyramid and most of those folks don't want Wonder Woman up there making male characters look bad because of outdated gender perceptions.

Her being vulnerable to bullets has nothing to do with outdated gender roles and has everything to do with nostalgia. We wouldn't have hundreds of female powerhouses if your theory was true.

It has everything to do with it. Bullets hurting Wonder Woman when she can take a punch from Doomsday seems like a contradiction, but so is any kind of scientific reason behind sun powered Kryptonians and most of the things Flash does. People go with it because its comic books are meant to be fun, not expositions on physics.

Superman receiving his power from sun is not contradictory because there is no contradiction in it. Kryptonian are comic book race and there is no real life of version them for it to be contradiction. It would be a contradiction if superman doesn't gain powers from yellow sun. In Wonder Woman's case it isn't even, it's flat out lame.

[brettc1]

Kryptonite is superman's weakness period.

And magic.

And red sun radiation.

And a knowledge of actual science.

You don't have to give it certain shape to harm superman. And who said Wonder Woman can't be harmed by kryptonite? All you have to do is make a pointy object using kryptonite and you are good to go because sharp objects are such a problem for her(apparently).

That makes about as much sense as saying bullets are a weakness for the Flash or Green Lantern.

Which they are, if they happen to be asleep on the toilet when you shoot them.