SM/WW issue discussion (spoilers)

[brettc1]

And its the sensuality and amourness that come with romantic love that completey changes the dynamics Thus the point still stands. If that sounds silly what can I say, blame the human brain.

And yet how many stories have been written about "bands of brothers" who share a stronger bond with each other than the women they are married to.

This is basically just saying that sex trumps friendship, but I am not sure the evidence is conclusive.

[Auguste Dupin]

Why not tell Wonder Woman about this idea? It is her reputation, she's a grown woman, it's her decision to make. Superman is throwing his own reputation in the gutter for something he believes is worth it(Lana & Steel's life), so, by his own logic, she should be able to do the same for something she believes is worth the price(Superman's life).

A few things:
a) Just because he's okay with throwing away his reputation doesn't mean he's okay with throwing away hers. That's called "caring".
b) I don't know if you read the rest of Truth, but his reputation already is pretty low right now, what with being called an alien scum and being wanted by the authorities. So he doesn't have as much to lose.

[misslane]

A few things:
a) Just because he's okay with throwing away his reputation doesn't mean he's okay with throwing away hers. That's called "caring".
b) I don't know if you read the rest of Truth, but his reputation already is pretty low right now, what with being called an alien scum and being wanted by the authorities. So he doesn't have as much to lose.

I understand and sympathize with Clark's desire to protect Diana, but what rubbed me the wrong way was the "no discussion" aspect of the conversation. Does Clark get to unilaterally decide what Diana considers worth tarnishing her reputation? Is it really caring to not care about what the woman you love thinks or wants to do to protect the people she cares about?

[Sacred Knight]

And yet how many stories have been written about "bands of brothers" who share a stronger bond with each other than the women they are married to.

Plenty in wartime situations where you're away from your family, and this band becomes your surrogate family as all they have is one another to depend on. Its indeed very powerful and not to be diminished. But, that's not at all a factor in the stories we're talking about. The difference in dynamics between Superman and Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman are clear. So the point continues to stand that you can't look to that team and say that because of the way they act together, there's something wrong with Superman and Wonder Woman. Its different.

This is basically just saying that sex trumps friendship, but I am not sure the evidence is conclusive.

Its one way to completely dumb down my words, but still not what I've said.

[brettc1]

Plenty in wartime situations where you're away from your family, and this band becomes your surrogate family as all they have is one another to depend on. Its indeed very powerful and not to be diminished. But, that's not at all a factor in the stories we're talking about. The difference in dynamics between Superman and Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman are clear. So the point continues to stand that you can't look to that team and say that because of the way they act together, there's something wrong with Superman and Wonder Woman. Its different.

Its one way to completely dumb down my words, but still not what I've said.

When you say "dumb down", I assume you mean "cut to the chase." and not that I am unintelligent or willfully stupid.

If you've agreed that the difference between platonic and romantic love is sex, which I think you have..

And its the sensuality and amorous-ness that come with romantic love that completly changes the dynamics Thus the point still stands. If that sounds silly what can I say, blame the human brain.

...then the conclusion that sex establishes a more fundamentally powerful relationship than friendship without it is unavoidable. Because if the sense of commitment, loyalty, and concern for the other person are equal then why even mention it?

Your position seems to be that

a] the relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman is different. And that this is because of

b] sex [assuming Superman and Wonder Woman have had that] but that

c] different does not mean superior, but also that

d] exactly how it is different can be summed up as "It just is."

[Lax]

A few things:
a) Just because he's okay with throwing away his reputation doesn't mean he's okay with throwing away hers. That's called "caring".

He wouldn't be throwing away her reputation because she is 100% responsible for the choices she makes in her own life, she would be disregarding public opinion for something she believes is more important. He informs her of his plan, she processes that information and then she makes a decision.

Caring? Granted, the man holds little-to-no value in his own life, but supposedly his "care" for the lives of Lana and Steel is the driving force behind all of this recklessness. If nothing else he should at least be able to recognize that the rejection of Wonder Woman's help is counter-productive to the point that it may lead to an outright failure to save Steel and Lana.

His judgement is a mess from top to bottom.

b) I don't know if you read the rest of Truth, but his reputation already is pretty low right now, what with being called an alien scum and being wanted by the authorities. So he doesn't have as much to lose.

I've read "Truth" almost exclusively as it pertains to SM/WW. I appreciate the extra information although I find it curious that you'd think it relevant to Superman's decision making process.

That is to say, if Superman was in perfect standing with the public and he had a choice between protecting Lana/Steel or keeping his reputation spotless, which would he choose? He'd protect his loved ones without the slightest bit of hesitation. If the public can't understand that, for whatever reason, then the fault lies with the public.

Yet he is willing to withhold potentially life-saving information from Wonder Woman in an effort to manipulate her into making a choice he himself would never make. I see no honor or nobility in this hypocrisy and it's counter-productive to boot.

Aside from that, him being wanted by the authorities would actually add to the credibility of Wonder Woman's concerns, which works against the original premise that "his life isn't a concern right now". The Suicide Squad is a black ops organization.

[Tayswift]

When you say "dumb down", I assume you mean "cut to the chase." and not that I am unintelligent or willfully stupid.

If you've agreed that the difference between platonic and romantic love is sex, which I think you have..



...then the conclusion that sex establishes a more fundamentally powerful relationship than friendship without it is unavoidable. Because if the sense of commitment, loyalty, and concern for the other person are equal then why even mention it?

Your position seems to be that

a] the relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman is different. And that this is because of

b] sex [assuming Superman and Wonder Woman have had that] but that

c] different does not mean superior, but also that

d] exactly how it is different can be summed up as "It just is."

batman and superman have a best relationship on new 52 than superman and wonder woman. dating someone doesn't mean is is deeper or stronger than a friendship

[kivatt]

I honestly think the problem is because the book isn't Superman/Wonder Woman, but instead it feels more like Superman feat. Wonder Woman. The main focus is mostly around Superman.

[Airtrap]

I honestly think the problem is because the book isn't Superman/Wonder Woman, but instead it feels more like Superman feat. Wonder Woman. The main focus is mostly around Superman.

Well it's a Superman book in the Superman group, edited by Superman editors, just like Batman/Superman is. Nothing in the Bat-Group ever references events from Batman/Superman.

btw. anybody noticed that Wonder Woman since issue 41 is also in the Superman group, edited by Kaminski and Bergenza. She was in the Justice League Group with the JL books, Aquaman, Flash & Cyborg

[Tayswift]

Well it's a Superman book in the Superman group, edited by Superman editors, just like Batman/Superman is. Nothing in the Bat-Group ever references events from Batman/Superman.

btw. anybody noticed that Wonder Woman since issue 41 is also in the Superman group, edited by Kaminski and Bergenza. She was in the Justice League Group with the JL books, Aquaman, Flash & Cyborg

I noticed it, it was about to happen anyway. Wonder woman almost a superman supporting character.

batman has many books, and Pak managed to build a good batman and superman relationship. It's not good as pre new 52.

[Sacred Knight]

Ever since Truth started the Superman books have been edited quite well, despite my reservations about Berganza, so hopefully this is a good thing that they're editing WW now.

[ssupes]

I honestly think the problem is because the book isn't Superman/Wonder Woman, but instead it feels more like Superman feat. Wonder Woman. The main focus is mostly around Superman.

I don't know which book your reading, you may be confusing it with sensation comics and superman with batman.

[Sacred Knight]

When you say "dumb down", I assume you mean "cut to the chase." and not that I am unintelligent or willfully stupid.

Netiher. Just generally dismissive of the posts I have made to this point of which I have explained my position,, instead opting to make lists trying to tell me what I've said, trying to make my thoughts look completely scattershot and thoughtless. That's not unintelligent or stupid, but unfair. So have fun with that, but it creates little incentive for me to take anymore time out to devote to this particular end of the discussion.

[Tayswift]

Ever since Truth started the Superman books have been edited quite well, despite my reservations about Berganza, so hopefully this is a good thing that they're editing WW now.

Berganza for me is one of the worst editors,so I don't think it will get any better. I waiting for a better writer and also editor.

[edgar5203]

Exactly, when you're in a relationship with someone, I think it goes without saying that you're supposed to be involved in that person's life, be loyal to him and look after him in some capacity but we have Wonder Woman wear his t-shirt, take on his occupations and verbalize her unconditional loyalty to him while Superman gives away nothing in return, he seems aloof, it's a one way street. Plus we know there's a new LL in his life and that he's gonna dump Wonder Woman soon which makes everything so much worse.

There's that random line of dialogue by Charles Soule that implies Wonder Woman's clingy and right now Wonder Woman happens to look a bit psycho and say things like "I'll be whatever you need me to be Superman, I'll be your flying horse, your bodyguard, I'll catch a bullet, I'll die for you, my love..", so yes she seems more obsessed than anything else.

Well, Soule had Kal declare his love to Diana and she did not reply in kind. They are both clingy, it's called being in love