Waid Responds to "Strange Fruit" Controversy: "What I Say About This is Not What's Important"

[Deniz Camp]

That's a problematic viewpoint though. If writers always had to write what you know we would severely have a shortage of stories. Vince Gilligan knew little to nothing about meth when he created Breaking Bad.

Vince Gilligan wasn't writing about the socio-cultural impact of meth, or the physical effects of Meth addiction. He was writing about a middle class white guy struggling to make it, and the lengths that he would go to to make it, and what a slippery slope that is. Far more in his wheelhouse.

George R.R. Martin did not experience one part of medieval history yet that still influences Game of Thrones.

He's not writing about Medieval history, he's writing fantasy. I think if there were medieval individuals roaming the streets they might take issue with his deformation of their experience -- or maybe not, since Game doesn't trade on 'historical authenticity'. And because 'medieval white people' are not an oppressed minority, struggling to gain respect, acceptance, and equality in the modern era.

Ed Brubaker knows nothing about being a spy yet is writing Velvet. Brian K. Vaughan knows nothing about being a female so should he not have written Y: The Last Man? Should Grant Morrison not write Wonder Woman because he lacks a vagina? What about Joss Whedon and his extensive popularity for writing good female characters? Is that problematic?

The only example even remotely relevant here is Wonder Woman and Grant Morrison, and Grant Morrison did extensive research into feminist theory and literature before he tackled that character. If he ends up writing a book that he's marketed and stated was about women but which is obviously and explicitly about men then, yeah, I think he'll be very open to criticism.

[RenwickDavis531]

That's all 100% fantasy. There's nothing realistic in the slightest about any of those stories, so you have a lot more leeway.

There's nothing realistic about meth cooking? What about Wonder Woman? Given that Wonder Woman is a symbol for feminism and will be used for Grant Morrison's views on feminism, how is that any different considering that it's a man writing about what an ideal society of females would be? I noticed you didn't actually disagree with the substantive part of the argument, but rather just used some half-baked technicality. Sure most of those examples are steeped in fiction more so than Strange Fruit, but we cannot deny the core of those stories which transcend the fictional aspect. Y: The Last Man is clearly a fictional story, but to solely view it as that divorced of any deeper meaning or impact is missing the point entirely. Same goes with Westeros in GoT, which is CLEARLY and HEAVILY influenced by actual historical events and practices, so much so that people have taken problems with Martin's writing because they find it offensive. So while on a surface level your point is true, on a deeper, more meaningful, and important level your point doesn't make any sense.

What's your opinion about the Wire, a show about the issues that people(including black people in a very prominent degree) face in Baltimore. That show dealt with institutionalized racism, drugs, discrimination, etc., all the while the show was created by a white guy. That show is considered one of the greatest shows of all time. Are you going to tell me that is 100% fantasy as well or actually come up with an argument?

[Double 0]

What's your opinion about the Wire, a show about the issues that people(including black people in a very prominent degree) face in Baltimore. That show dealt with institutionalized racism, drugs, discrimination, etc., all the while the show was created by a white guy. That show is considered one of the greatest shows of all time. Are you going to tell me that is 100% fantasy as well or actually come up with an argument?

Not the best show to use. A LOT of black people were working behind the scenes (and as writers). Plus, the showrunner had an entire career's worth of research.

[RenwickDavis531]

Vince Gilligan wasn't writing about the socio-cultural impact of meth, or the physical effects of Meth addiction. He was writing about a middle class white guy struggling to make it, and the lengths that he would go to to make it, and what a slippery slope that is. Far more in his wheelhouse.





He's not writing about Medieval history, he's writing fantasy. I think if there were medieval individuals roaming the streets they might take issue with his deformation of their experience -- or maybe not, since Game doesn't trade on 'historical authenticity'. And because 'medieval white people' are not an oppressed minority, struggling to gain respect, acceptance, and equality in the modern era.




The only example even remotely relevant here is Wonder Woman and Grant Morrison, and Grant Morrison did extensive research into feminist theory and literature before he tackled that character. If he ends up writing a book that he's marketed and stated was about women but which is obviously and explicitly about men then, yeah, I think he'll be very open to criticism.

The crux of the argument that I was responding to was the notion of writers only writing what they know. Vince Gilligan has no knowledge of the criminal underworld or drug empires yet still wrote about it, which goes directly against writing what you know.

He's bot writing about Medieval history, but he is writing a fantasy story heavily influenced by medieval history, and has seen criticism from people who have taken offense to his work. The show deals with covert political dealings, rape, incest, child murder, arranged marriages, political killings, etc. and all of these examples have not been experienced by Martin yet he still uses those experiences to comment on human nature.

And you think Mark Waid hasn't done his research into Jim Crow laws and segregation? Understand what I'm criticizing here is not the quality of the story, but rather the idea that someone who has not experienced something can not write about that said something. If people have problems with his story and how it is implemented then I have no problem with that. But the people who say it shouldn't be made are the people I'm talking about right now. The reason I used the Grant Morrison example is because no matter how much he has researched feminism he is still a man who has not experienced anything he has researched, which was the core of the argument I was responding to.

[Deniz Camp]

Again, though, the issue isn't that 'only black people can write about black people'. If that is what you're getting from the critique, you're misinterpreting. Yes, one IS going to approach a middle aged white guy writing about the 'black experience' with a degree of skepticism, but the issue is with the execution. Double O gives a perfect counter-point; Al Ewing, not only white but british, could only have an academic or second hand understanding of the African American experience, historically and presently. And yet his work on Mighty Avengers was met with thunderous acceptance, because he had his characters discuss racial issues deftly, sensitively, and thoughtfully.

[Deniz Camp]

And you think Mark Waid hasn't done his research into Jim Crow laws and segregation? Understand what I'm criticizing here is not the quality of the story, but rather the idea that someone who has not experienced something can not write about that said something. If people have problems with his story and how it is implemented then I have no problem with that. But the people who say it shouldn't be made are the people I'm talking about right now. The reason I used the Grant Morrison example is because no matter how much he has researched feminism he is still a man who has not experienced anything he has researched, which was the core of the argument I was responding to.

No one is saying one 'cannot write' what they don't personally know. They're saying that if you DO, and it's as real and present an issue as race is in THIS country RIGHT NOW, then you better be thoughtful about what you're doing.

That Mark Waid might know quite a bit about Jim Crow doesn't change the actual execution of his work, which the critique extensively dissects. That's the issue, here. It's cultural appropriation and deformation, not identification or exploration, and it is a sadly re-occurring theme in the history of african american/white interactions in this country.

[Dabpool]

I feel the criticism and contraversy is more an indictment on the industry then the book itself. The book is just a symptom of the larger problem of lack of creative diversity.

[RenwickDavis531]

No one is saying one 'cannot write' what they don't personally know. They're saying that if you DO, and it's as real and present an issue as race is in THIS country RIGHT NOW, then you better be thoughtful about what you're doing.

That Mark Waid might know quite a bit about Jim Crow doesn't change the actual execution of his work, which the critique extensively dissects. That's the issue, here. It's cultural appropriation and deformation, not identification or exploration, and it is a sadly re-occurring theme in the history of african american/white interactions in this country.

Did you not read the initial comment that I was replying to where they said that people should write what they know and since Mark Waid doesnt share the same experiences as black people then he shouldn't write this story. From the jump they were opposed to this story. I will iterate that I am not talking about quality of writing and anyone who has problems with that, but talking to the people who say it shouldn't have been made.

Personally, I would go as far as to say that even if the story is poorly written that shouldn't be used as an example to show how racist Mark Waid is or any malicious cultural appropriation attempt. He is a guy that wanted to tell a story about prevalent issues, and I can't begrudge him that just because the story might have been handled poorly. Personally I enjoyed the issue, and I don't think that makes me less black because of it(not referring to you, but other people who have talked to this about)

[Deniz Camp]

I don't see anyone attributing 'malicious intent' to Mark Waid, and I certainly am not. I think he handled the criticism very well, in exactly the only appropriate way possible. If there is a problem with 'Strange Fruit' I believe it was unintentional, I believe that Mark Waid had good intentions. But that doesn't change the work; and maybe the experience with this criticism will cause him to re-examine his approach.

Mark Waid has always been a good guy in the industry, as far as I've known of him. He cares about people, about the integrity of stories and creators and characters. He's been an avid supporter and defender of a number of marginalized or forgotten creators, he's worked hard to progress this industry against a lot of roadblocks. This doesn't erase any of that, or change any of that.

[RenwickDavis531]

Not the best show to use. A LOT of black people were working behind the scenes (and as writers). Plus, the showrunner had an entire career's worth of research.

Yes, but the comment I was referring to was stating how white people can't write about black issues since the two groups have different cultural experiences. David Simon, a white guy, wanted to tell a story about the problems of Baltimore, and was the showrunner and one of its prominent writers. A lot of people(not all) are automatically writing Mark Waid off simply because he's white, and I'm arguing against that notion not the actual execution.

[RenwickDavis531]

I don't see anyone attributing 'malicious intent' to Mark Waid, and I certainly am not. I think he handled the criticism very well, in exactly the only appropriate way possible. If there is a problem with 'Strange Fruit' I believe it was unintentional, I believe that Mark Waid had good intentions. But that doesn't change the work; and maybe the experience with this criticism will cause him to re-examine his approach.

Mark Waid has always been a good guy in the industry, as far as I've known of him. He cares about people, about the integrity of stories and creators and characters. He's been an avid supporter and defender of a number of marginalized or forgotten creators, he's worked hard to progress this industry against a lot of roadblocks. This doesn't erase any of that, or change any of that.

Once again, you're not one of the people I'm talking about. The comment that made me want to reply was talking about the inherent different experiences that blacks and whites face and why that should be used to say that white people shouldn't write about black issues and I have seen that mentality echoed across the internet. I personally took offense to that comment because of the expectation that since I'm black that I'm automatically one who has a different experience than my white friends, and my personal experience has shown little to no difference. I think people unfortunately and unintentionally let racial discrimination(understandably so) shape their every perception that every single individual case is seen as racist, and I don't agree with that sentiment

I will reiterate once again that the main thing that I'm arguing against is the notion that a white person or anyone else cannot tell a story about experiences that aren't their own, and especially people who use this as an example of racism. I am not talking about people who have legitimate criticisms with the story or take a nuanced approach to the criticism. I've seen people around the net just write Waid off as another racist despite his intentions, and I don't think that's fair. People should be able to voice their concerns, and I have no problem with that. If you're not exhibiting the things that I'm talking about then you're not one of the people that I'm talking about. Personally, I thought the issue had promise and I'm intrigued where the story will go. I didn't find anything racist or offensive and I think it's hard to write the story off based on one issue as well since it's such a small part of the story. I don't have a problem with people with legitimate complaints about the story. What I do have a problem with are critiques about the man or his intent solely based on his story.

[Double 0]

I feel the criticism and contraversy is more an indictment on the industry then the book itself. The book is just a symptom of the larger problem of lack of creative diversity.

Despite not liking the book myself, this is true.

[Deniz Camp]

I'm not seeing any of what you're seeing, regarding the comments. The initial comment you respond to is specifically talking about THIS case, not all cases. Two white guys writing about the black experience in the united states has a greater chance of being tone deaf. That's reality. And it's not as if people of color aren't interested in writing, or making comics. Less of them, due to a huge number of historical and cultural factors, but nevertheless there are plenty that do.

No one is talking about the universal, here. It's all grounded in this specific example.

[RenwickDavis531]

"Black people in america have an entirely different cultural experience than white people. That's just a sad fact of the world. Black people and white people aren't different, but they sure are treated differently in america, and thus, have a different cultural social experience. I don't want two white guys trying to write about an experience they haven't had. It comes down to the old adage; write what you know."

Those last two sentences are what I'm referring to. People who say that since someone hasn't experienced an issue means they can't talk about the issue. This quote doesn't talk about nuance or an informed dissection of the issues, but simply the notion of "two white guys trying to write about an experience they haven't had," and the conclusion was based on the crux that blacks and whites "have a different cultural social experience." My point is that Mark Waid and J.G. Jones can tell a story about whatever they want regardless of experience.

[el shah]

Mark Waid can and should write whatever he wants.

Really wish creators would stop apologizing and being timid about their work in this overly sensitive climate.

There should and will be more black writers in the future, but that has nothing to with Waid and the story he wants to tell.