Wonder Woman--the road is rough?

[anarki]

（Edit: I think I was overly concerned, Things are getting better after all)

When I watched Suicide Squad trailer, I found this.
hllks1.jpg
(Edit: Seems the post is not there anymore)
Seems everybody is excited to see Harley on the big screen,
While there aren't many people expecting WW in BVS's comment section on Youtube.

When I looked throungh reddit, I found that besides males, many girls also love Harley, but not WW.

Here's a strange comment I found, from a girl--:
"Harley is a hell yes. Since she hasn't really been done recently, i think she will be hard to mess up. Also, i think this one would be fun to cosplay. Suicide Squad generally looks like a grungy, haggard movie that will be refreshing. Tired of all the Hollywood pretty.
Wonder Woman is going to be a crying shame, just watch. I bet she's only there for eye candy. She's like Black Widow was in The Avengers. Waaaah wah. I think she's competition against X Men's sex appeal. We shall see..."--

I found it really weirld, Harley's costume is way more sexier than WW's, she's wearing hot pants, stilettos, And she's a mortal, isn't that impractical?
But it seems that girls just don't care, and they love cosplaying her--but there were many compaints about WW's costume being impractical, even she's an Amazon and a goddess, and think she's an eye candy for men.
Seems that WW just can't get much love from girls, Is she really a character designed in favor of men? I'm curious.

Many people wanted WW to be perfect, but even her most praised comics didn't sell much. Let alone in real life, it's nearly impossible to find a perfect actress for her. I've already seen many complaints about Gal Gadot.
While in case of Harley, she dosen't have to be muscular, tall and desexualized--just be pretty, sexy, and kick-ass.

I'm not here complainting about Harley, I love her, it's many people's reaction to WW that bugs me.

Now I'm feeling anxious for WW, and her 2017 film, hope DC/Warners can find a way to make her popular.

[kantor]

"Bad Girls", anyone? Guess the 90ies are coming back...

[Airtrap]

There was a article about the very subject recently in vulture:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/12/harle...ide-squad.html

The writing team considers Harley a feminist character, drawing comparisons — and contrasts — between her and comics’ longest-standing female icon, Wonder Woman. “Wonder Woman sort of represents perfection, whereas Harley represents everybody else,” Conner said.
One of the biggest Harley fans I’ve encountered is an Australian named Elise Archer, who’s been a fan since the early days and says her fixation on Harley has helped her through her own battles with PTSD and clinical depression. She was adamant that Harley was one of the most important feminist figures in superhero fiction — not in spite of her shortcomings, but because of them.

“I don’t want to be condescended to with strong, independent female characters who don’t have any flaws and are just kinda perfect and sane and never make bad relationship choices,” she said. “For me, the freedom Harley’s been given to be a ****-up is much less misogynist than all these other hackneyed stories thrust on female characters again and again.”

Basically girls don't want "perfect" role models, they rather want people who are messed up, it's the same reason people find Superman "lame" and "boring". Nice characters are a tougher sell nowadaws, people are just too cynical for them, people want to be Homer Simpson and not Ned Flanders afterall

[Agent Z]

Even if I were to buy the "Wonder Woman is unrelatable" thing, in what universe does Harley Quinn represent everyone else?

Also, there are way more stories of women being messed up than those who aren't. It's kind of why characters like Diana exist in the first place.

[anarki]

There was a article about the very subject recently in vulture:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/12/harle...ide-squad.html



Basically girls don't want "perfect" role models, they rather want people who are messed up, it's the same reason people find Superman "lame" and "boring". Nice characters are a tougher sell nowadaws, people are just too cynical for them, people want to be Homer Simpson and not Ned Flanders afterall

Now I'm thinking the whole "impractical" thing is not that important at all, it's the popularity that matters .
Harley's costume is far from practical in the movie, and she's a mere mortal, so what? She can still beat dangerous foes without dead in a minute. And people just want this.(and don't forget she's a psychiatrist before, not a well-trained amazon)

While there are many complaints about WW's costume being impractical, even she's a goddess/superpower.
I admit she shouldn't wear swimsuits anymore, it's old-fashioned. But no need to cover her all up by intention either.
And of course, she can have different armors by occasion, full armors and non-full armors.

[Nite-Wing]

There was a article about the very subject recently in vulture:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/12/harle...ide-squad.html



Basically girls don't want "perfect" role models, they rather want people who are messed up, it's the same reason people find Superman "lame" and "boring". Nice characters are a tougher sell nowadaws, people are just too cynical for them, people want to be Homer Simpson and not Ned Flanders afterall

I love Harley but this is a bit hilarious yes she can sort of be considered a feminist character but not to the degree wonder woman is
Yes having relationship problems and generally not always making the right decisions is the mark of the average person but Harley is a bit more than that
Now we have gone ful circle and Wonder Woman is basically unrelatable again because of how few flaws she has

[Auguste Dupin]

I love Harley but this is a bit hilarious yes she can sort of be considered a feminist character but not to the degree wonder woman is
Yes having relationship problems and generally not always making the right decisions is the mark of the average person but Harley is a bit more than that
Now we have gone ful circle and Wonder Woman is basically unrelatable again because of how few flaws she has

Nothing screams "feminism" like "crazy lunatic suffering from Stockholm Syndrome who's submissive to a crazy murderous dude who's litterally pissing on her", I guess (and for those who say "that's just proof the Suicide Squad movie will be a disgrace to the character", well.....being defenested on multiple occasions ain't much better,folks".).

[Gaelforce]

A reminder.

The Wonder Woman forum is 'family friendly' and has strict guidelines regarding language. Multiple posts in this thread had to be edited as a result of people straying from those rules.

Please keep it clean folks

[Outside_85]

I'm a little bit mystified by Harley's popularity nowadays. I mean I got it when she was in BTAS, because she was a comedy relief foil to the Joker of all people. But since then... not so much, because DC had to blend the humor with a certain amount of seriousness to make her fit in with the comic Joker. Which ofc culminated in the New 52 SS version who was very little fun and a whole lot of murdering.

Regarding Diana's role in BMvSM contra Harley's in SS... ok I don't think that's credible, everything seems to point to Diana being more than eye-candy. And Harley is being pushed so hard you might forget the rest of the cast of SS. Not to mention in a team decked out almost entirely in black, Harley is nothing but eye-catching in her very white getup.
Finally, like I said when I first saw the group shot (or wherever it was I saw Harley first): It's not a Harley Quinn outfit to me, it's too far from the original... not to mention that she doesn't really look like a 'super' anything but more like... well I think I would be breaking the rules of the board if I said

Harley as a feminist symbol... ehh no, those two doesn't combine in my mind. Her entire existence is now revolving around her boyfriend, and no matter how badly he hurts and abuses her, she goes running back to him, eventually. And to top things off, I don't see her as being terribly relateable either; she is after all a murderous psychopath with an extreme fixation on an even worse boyfriend.
Regarding Diana, forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't the point of Wonder Woman to serve as an example people could aspire to? If so, wouldn't that mean she should be 'better' than the average person so they could aspire to her standards?

[mathew101281]

If Harley is a feminist character then the word feminist has completely lost its meaning.

[Darius]

I think Harley is popular for the same reason dressing slutty at Halloween is popular ... it's exciting and a little naughty and probably a touch empowering to act out. It's kind of a female version of male power fantasy. WW doesn't have the same edge that a character like Harley has so she's going to be seen as more traditional.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't know if I'd ever use the term "feminist" to describe Harley. But she is a layered, three dimensional character, even if she's NOT meant to be a role model for any sane person. She definitely looks like she will be the scene stealer in the film, and it's a complex role that Robbie will be able to sink her teeth into. Even if her story is warped and tragic (as it is meant to be), it will still be more interesting than just being a prop. Harley's going to have an arc, which is more than a lot of female characters get in CBMs.

Black Widow is great and I love MoS Lois, but aside from them, I think the last truly interesting female character we've had in a CBM was Michelle's Catwoman in Batman Returns, and that was all the way back in 1992. Glad to see things looks like they're turning around with Wonder Woman getting the first solo female film, and FOUR distinct female characters in SS.

[Tayswift]

Nothing screams "feminism" like "crazy lunatic suffering from Stockholm Syndrome who's submissive to a crazy murderous dude who's litterally pissing on her", I guess (and for those who say "that's just proof the Suicide Squad movie will be a disgrace to the character", well.....being defenested on multiple occasions ain't much better,folks".).

now you are being disrespectiful. I understand that many abused women see harley as a recovering victim of abuse. A damagfed woman that tries to raise even being broken by joker.

the problem that harley became a fetish and so sexualized. I'm sad that on suicide squad she will use panties that show her butt

[Awonder]

Hmm, interesting. Characters and stories appeal (or don't appeal) to us differently duel in part, to different life experiences. Never really thought of Harley as "feminist," but there's an interesting point (from the link):

"Feminism is about showing women as fully fleshed out human beings, and that's what Harley is," Strand said. "She doesn't make choices that are smart or good for a woman, but she gets to make those choices. Men are allowed to be ####-ups in all kinds of characters, and women aren't. We have to be idealized. She gets to not be."

I'm not up to speed on Harley; hopefully both her solo title and the SS movie are doing/do a good job making her a fleshed out character and not just Joker's girlfriend.

My gripe is that just saying she made bad relationship choices is severely down-playing some of the horrible things she's done; that's much more serious than just "flaws."

[Darius]

Hmm, interesting. Characters and stories appeal (or don't appeal) to us differently duel in part, to different life experiences. Never really thought of Harley as "feminist," but there's an interesting point (from the link):

"Feminism is about showing women as fully fleshed out human beings, and that's what Harley is," Strand said. "She doesn't make choices that are smart or good for a woman, but she gets to make those choices. Men are allowed to be ####-ups in all kinds of characters, and women aren't. We have to be idealized. She gets to not be."

I'm not up to speed on Harley; hopefully both her solo title and the SS movie are doing/do a good job making her a fleshed out character and not just Joker's girlfriend.

My gripe is that just saying she made bad relationship choices is severely down-playing some of the horrible things she's done; that's much more serious than just "flaws."

I kinda sorta see where he's going with this, but it sounds an awful lot like rationalization rather than deliberate character driven writing. I'd say plenty of female characters are allowed to be screw-ups, that doesn't make those characters feminists anymore than male screw-ups are good role models for young men.