Wonder Woman--the road is rough?

[Awonder]

I kinda sorta see where he's going with this, but it sounds an awful lot like rationalization rather than deliberate character driven writing. I'd say plenty of female characters are allowed to be screw-ups, that doesn't make those characters feminists anymore than male screw-ups are good role models for young men.

Well, I don't think "feminism," in this case, is equal to "good role model." The "flawed" characters get more freedom to make choices maybe the "good role models" wouldn't make. I don't think that inherently makes one type of character better than another type. But, for some people, it can have some more appeal.

[Auguste Dupin]

now you are being disrespectiful. I understand that many abused women see harley as a recovering victim of abuse. A damagfed woman that tries to raise even being broken by joker.

the problem that harley became a fetish and so sexualized. I'm sad that on suicide squad she will use panties that show her butt

A recovering victim that never actually does recover, and always comes back to her abusive boyfriend. Hell, even when she does break up all connections to him, she still remains a crazy lunatic commiting crimes because it's fun, something she has become because of said boyfriend's bad influence on her (she was perfectly normal before meeting him, after all). That doesn't mean she's a bad character, but I'm not seeing the part where she's a feminist icon.

[Nite-Wing]

I think the point is Harley has reached a point where her attitude and candor about her life and her choices to do whatever she wants good or evil is basically accentuating the fact that she's not a role model. She is herself now a unique feminist icon to some people
You see lots of shows like Girls and 2 broke girls get a lot of praise because they don't focus on women being ideal creatures who are supposed to be inspiring role models or whatever.
I think this sense of not being an ideal and so relateable is probably why Harley appeals to so many people

I just don't like the idea of her being considered a feminist character but if people use her stories to feel better about themselves than far be it for me to criticize.
I think Wonder Woman could stand to be a bit funnier sometimes

[Tayswift]

I think the point is Harley has reached a point where her attitude and candor about her life and her choices to do whatever she wants good or evil is basically accentuating the fact that she's not a role model. She is herself now a unique feminist icon to some people
You see lots of shows like Girls and 2 broke girls get a lot of praise because they don't focus on women being ideal creatures who are supposed to be inspiring role models or whatever.
I think this sense of not being an ideal and so relateable is probably why Harley appeals to so many people

I just don't like the idea of her being considered a feminist character but if people use her stories to feel better about themselves than far be it for me to criticize.
I think Wonder Woman could stand to be a bit funnier sometimes

I agree with you, wonder woman could be funnier and more "pedestrian".

not all feminist icons will be role models, nothing wrong with that.

[Agent Z]

So we're forgetting the Max Lord situation which was clearly portrayed as a morally grey situation?

[Agent Z]

I some times wonder if this whole "he/she's not relatable" accusation is simply thrown at characters because they happen to have a different perspective or life experience than the audience. I mean, why would Diana be funny in a way we identify with despite coming from a different background?

[Tayswift]

So we're forgetting the Max Lord situation which was clearly portrayed as a morally grey situation?

that was heroic, but batman and superman were all against her.

A recovering victim that never actually does recover, and always comes back to her abusive boyfriend. Hell, even when she does break up all connections to him, she still remains a crazy lunatic commiting crimes because it's fun, something she has become because of said boyfriend's bad influence on her (she was perfectly normal before meeting him, after all). That doesn't mean she's a bad character, but I'm not seeing the part where she's a feminist icon.

well harley is far away from joker doing her own things. Now she is damged, and won't 100% recovery because comics never have a end and people on real life sometimes don't recover too.
I see no reasons she can't be a feminist icon, she rises over her abuser. abused women can be feminists too

[JimRaynor55]

Wonder Woman is going to be a crying shame, just watch. I bet she's only there for eye candy. She's like Black Widow was in The Avengers. Waaaah wah. I think she's competition against X Men's sex appeal. We shall see..."--

Totally disagree with this statement, and I find it rather dismissive not only of Wonder Woman but of other female characters.

Black Widow was definitely not mere eye candy in the Avengers films. She received far more lines than some of the male characters, and she was very fleshed out as a character. Widow is a portrayal of someone plagued with trauma and guilt, who alternately uses cold professionalism or charms to hide her vulnerabilities. She's ruthless but also caring, and she strives to do what's right.

It's ironic to me because Widow was actually called "eye candy" on the Agents of SHIELD show to get across what a complete jerk a certain villain was.

Diana is "perfect" and boring if you don't bother thinking about her as a character. While she's strong and compassionate, she's also sheltered and naive right after leaving Paradise Island. She has an overprotective, worrying mother who doubts her ability to survive and succeed away from home.

Wonder Woman has some classic coming of age elements to her. I've always thought that she was a great character with which to relate to Generation Y, the "Peter Pan" generation of teenagers to young thirty-somethings that was sheltered and kept at home long after reaching adulthood.

[Auguste Dupin]

well harley is far away from joker doing her own things. Now she is damged, and won't 100% recovery because comics never have a end and people on real life sometimes don't recover too.
I see no reasons she can't be a feminist icon, she rises over her abuser. abused women can be feminists too

Always to fall back to him.
In the Animated series', the last time we saw her, she helped him torture, mindrape and brainwash Tim Drake, a 12 year old kid, an act he compared to raising a family with him.
In the Arkham series, she's so devoted to him that his death completely breaks her, making her switch between pure sadism and a cathatonic state.
And how many times in the comics (or even the cartoons) has she promised to leave him behind for good, only to go right back to him without so much as a mention why?
Harley never rises above the Joker. That's the point of her character, in a sense.

[misslane]

Always to fall back to him.
In the Animated series', the last time we saw her, she helped him torture, mindrape and brainwash Tim Drake, a 12 year old kid, an act he compared to raising a family with him.
In the Arkham series, she's so devoted to him that his death completely breaks her, making her switch between pure sadism and a cathatonic state.
And how many times in the comics (or even the cartoons) has she promised to leave him behind for good, only to go right back to him without so much as a mention why?
Harley never rises above the Joker. That's the point of her character, in a sense.

Harley isn't a feminist icon or role model, and she doesn't have to be in order for male or female fans to like or even like her more than Wonder Woman. Harley is well-liked because she's interesting. There are plenty of male villains, screw ups, and anti-heroes who are unquestionably beloved and supported by fans and the public.

Harley is a "feminist" character because she is a dynamic, complex, multi-dimensional, and often well-written female character. She is not feminist because she is an ideal feminist, but because she is allowed to represent more than just feminist perfection.

Women, like men, are capable of distinguishing between good characters and good role models in their fiction. We don't just want to read or watch media that represents us as sanctified paragons of feminist virtue, Madonnas or Whores. So Harley is feminist because she represents a shade of color on a rainbow of who and what women can be: good or bad, right or wrong.

It is astonishing to me to see fans of a character like Wonder Woman putting down or questioning fans, especially women, who prefer a character like Harley. Do we all have to unquestionably love only perfect people? Why can't consumers of fiction enjoy fun and interesting characters just because they are fun and interesting?

[brettc1]

There was a article about the very subject recently in vulture:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/12/harle...ide-squad.html



Basically girls don't want "perfect" role models, they rather want people who are messed up, it's the same reason people find Superman "lame" and "boring". Nice characters are a tougher sell nowadaws, people are just too cynical for them, people want to be Homer Simpson and not Ned Flanders afterall

Hell's teeth. Homer? Really?

But I guess its hard to argue with the nice characters are tougher to sell point when you see messed up males like Christian Grey selling millions of copies.

On the other hand, Captain America is the definitive nice guy and his last movie sold through the stratosphere.

[Mel Dyer]

Harley Quinn is ..fun? Wonder Woman, ..since the 40s...not so much.

Most people want to have fun. Gladiator-girl stomping around in a colorless Xena Halloween costume, stripped of all its glorious, starry Americana...not fun.

[Airtrap]

Hell's teeth. Homer? Really?

But I guess its hard to argue with the nice characters are tougher to sell point when you see messed up males like Christian Grey selling millions of copies.

On the other hand, Captain America is the definitive nice guy and his last movie sold through the stratosphere.

I think Cap. America get away with it because he was frozen and the whole act is kinda charming in his naivete of the modern world and his usage of "ma'am". He has a reason to be "that nice", he's from a different time, if a modern character is that nice we expect foul play because nobody is "that nice", it's even a trope/cliche at this point.

I like the Jimmy Olsen/ Lex Luthor analogy i've seen before: Basically back in the day most people were like Jimmy, just seeing the good in Superman and admiring him. Nowadays people are like Lex, distrusting this "too good to be true" character and expecting the worst. It's a very cynical worldview but i think we see it everyday on social media.

Also in regards to this Harley/Diana (or Batman/Superman) thing, i always just assume that people don't want to be patronized in a way.

[Hawk80]

If Harley can be considered a feminist, why can't Doomsday be one of them too? He murders both genders equally!
Or the Riddler. He does good things and bad things, can be right and wrong. Like any woman could.
What kind of woman does Harley represent? Not the kind of woman I would be ok to grant freedom (= jail/asylum).

Nobody is saying that the character has a problem or isn't intersting. It's quite the opposite: Why can't certain characters be left out of the mud?

[kivatt]

Harley is the DC Deadpool, nothing you can do there.

But this is partly to blame on DC for not promoting Wonder Woman, like they could be doing.
I honestly don't understand the Harley Quinn hype. As a character she is not really a great role model for people, or even a good feminist icon.

Maybe it's because I'm a man, I don't get it.

But the problem with Wonder Woman, is she is not promoted right. Also people hate a good character. And when I say a good character I mean someone that is actually a good person and isn't edgy. Which is why people dislike Superman. Also when you have a strong willed woman, people tend to dislike that.