Wonder Woman--the road is rough?

[kivatt]

But seriously DC needs to put a new creative team on that book.

[Tayswift]

I think Cap. America get away with it because he was frozen and the whole act is kinda charming in his naivete of the modern world and his usage of "ma'am". He has a reason to be "that nice", he's from a different time, if a modern character is that nice we expect foul play because nobody is "that nice", it's even a trope/cliche at this point.

I like the Jimmy Olsen/ Lex Luthor analogy i've seen before: Basically back in the day most people were like Jimmy, just seeing the good in Superman and admiring him. Nowadays people are like Lex, distrusting this "too good to be true" character and expecting the worst. It's a very cynical worldview but i think we see it everyday on social media.

Also in regards to this Harley/Diana (or Batman/Superman) thing, i always just assume that people don't want to be patronized in a way.

captain america fought on world war II, so the fact that he was born on 1920s/1910s doesn't hold a candle. he fought the nazis and hydra.

the world is so cynical that we don't believe people will do the right thing because they want and they are good.

I also see a lot of sympathy for villains like loki and Fisk. people are damaged with abuse, bullying, racism.

[Auguste Dupin]

It is astonishing to me to see fans of a character like Wonder Woman putting down or questioning fans, especially women, who prefer a character like Harley. Do we all have to unquestionably love only perfect people? Why can't consumers of fiction enjoy fun and interesting characters just because they are fun and interesting?

Well, it's a good thing I wrote earlier that I didn't think she was a bad character and didn't say a thing about her fans, otherwise I might have thought you were talking about me.

[Tayswift]

Harley is the DC Deadpool, nothing you can do there.

But this is partly to blame on DC for not promoting Wonder Woman, like they could be doing.
I honestly don't understand the Harley Quinn hype. As a character she is not really a great role model for people, or even a good feminist icon.

Maybe it's because I'm a man, I don't get it.

But the problem with Wonder Woman, is she is not promoted right. Also people hate a good character. And when I say a good character I mean someone that is actually a good person and isn't edgy. Which is why people dislike Superman. Also when you have a strong willed woman, people tend to dislike that.

if people love deadpool and punisher, why not harley? she is fun and have some innocence into her (at least the animated version). I still surprised with her succcess but I guess girls also want to go wild. Also her friendship with ivy is pretty nice, a story have ivy and harley team up to save a kid from abuse. the dicotomy of harley being crazy but also having a big heart is very cool;

[Agent Z]

Harley isn't a feminist icon or role model, and she doesn't have to be in order for male or female fans to like or even like her more than Wonder Woman. Harley is well-liked because she's interesting. There are plenty of male villains, screw ups, and anti-heroes who are unquestionably beloved and supported by fans and the public.

Harley is a "feminist" character because she is a dynamic, complex, multi-dimensional, and often well-written female character. She is not feminist because she is an ideal feminist, but because she is allowed to represent more than just feminist perfection.

Women, like men, are capable of distinguishing between good characters and good role models in their fiction. We don't just want to read or watch media that represents us as sanctified paragons of feminist virtue, Madonnas or Whores. So Harley is feminist because she represents a shade of color on a rainbow of who and what women can be: good or bad, right or wrong.

It is astonishing to me to see fans of a character like Wonder Woman putting down or questioning fans, especially women, who prefer a character like Harley. Do we all have to unquestionably love only perfect people? Why can't consumers of fiction enjoy fun and interesting characters just because they are fun and interesting?

Most people here are questioning the claim of Harley being a better role model for women (something you yourself admit she is anything but) than Diana. The truth is that Diana isn't perfect but is often accused of being such by people who don't read her book to begin with, yet think they know all about her. These people also can't talk about how much they prefer characters like Harley without mentioning how much they hate Diana. This is actually a pretty common occurrence on the net from what I've seen. Hell, look at the opening post of this thread.

[kivatt]

if people love deadpool and punisher, why not harley? she is fun and have some innocence into her (at least the animated version). I still surprised with her succcess but I guess girls also want to go wild. Also her friendship with ivy is pretty nice, a story have ivy and harley team up to save a kid from abuse. the dicotomy of harley being crazy but also having a big heart is very cool;

I've never really been a fan of her that much though. She was always just there to me. I read her Solo, and power girl team up. But I don't really see anything there for her to make he like her that much. She kinda annoys me. Not her so much but they fandom. I just dislike how they glorify the character while not realizing the many flaws that she has. As well as people romanticizing her relationship with Joker. Which makes me question life. People are really just doing to ignore the obvious domestic abuse that is there.


Deadpool, and Punisher are edgy. Which is why people are drawn to them.

[misslane]

I honestly don't understand the Harley Quinn hype. As a character she is not really a great role model for people, or even a good feminist icon.

Do men only like male characters who are great role models or icons of modern, progressive, enlightened masculinity? I don't think so. There's plenty of affection for messed up men like Walter White and Don Draper. Why can't women have their own villains, anti-heroes, and screw ups? Sometimes when you read or watch a story, you just want to be entertained by vicariously experiencing another shade of what it means to be human whether it's a story grounded in reality or magnified by fantasy. I find that I can enjoy both Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman because I get something different from both characters.

[misslane]

Well, it's a good thing I wrote earlier that I didn't think she was a bad character and didn't say a thing about her fans, otherwise I might have thought you were talking about me.

Thank you. It's why I used the term "fans" rather than "you."

Most people here are questioning the claim of Harley being a better role model for women (something you yourself admit she is anything but) than Diana. The truth is that Diana isn't perfect but is often accused of being such by people who don't read her book to begin with, yet think they know all about her. These people also can't talk about how much they prefer characters like Harley without mentioning how much they hate Diana. This is actually a pretty common occurrence on the net from what I've seen. Hell, look at the opening post of this thread.

But no one, including the Vulture article featured in the thread are arguing that Harley is a great role model for women. The article goes out of its way, in fact, to dispute that as a selling point for Harley's character. And, while I disagree with hating Diana, I think it's wrong to judge anyone for preferring one type of female character to another. Some will simply love and enjoy the imperfect and messed up anti-hero more than the more perfect and more idealized hero.

[kivatt]

Do men only like male characters who are great role models or icons of modern, progressive, enlightened masculinity? I don't think so. There's plenty of affection for messed up men like Walter White and Don Draper. Why can't women have their own villains, anti-heroes, and screw ups? Sometimes when you read or watch a story, you just want to be entertained by vicariously experiencing another shade of what it means to be human whether it's a story grounded in reality or magnified by fantasy. I find that I can enjoy both Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman because I get something different from both characters.

I get what you are saying, but I didn't explain myself. I don't get when people say they look up to the character, and find the character inspiring, which I have seen before. I honestly don't care for either of those two characters. There's nothing wrong with liking a character, but when they get overhyped, I tend to dislike them. Also with character's like these, I don't like how some of the fans tend not see the flaws in these characters. I don't know it kind of annoys me.

[Hawk80]

Do men only like male characters who are great role models or icons of modern, progressive, enlightened masculinity? I don't think so. There's plenty of affection for messed up men like Walter White and Don Draper. Why can't women have their own villains, anti-heroes, and screw ups? Sometimes when you read or watch a story, you just want to be entertained by vicariously experiencing another shade of what it means to be human whether it's a story grounded in reality or magnified by fantasy. I find that I can enjoy both Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman because I get something different from both characters.

I agree, but Harley has nothing to do with feminism. And that's ok!

[kivatt]

But back to the point of why Wonder Woman isn't as popular right now as she should be?

[misslane]

I get what you are saying, but I didn't explain myself. I don't get when people say they look up to the character, and find the character inspiring, which I have seen before. I honestly don't care for either of those two characters. There's nothing wrong with liking a character, but when they get overhyped, I tend to dislike them. Also with character's like these, I don't like how some of the fans tend not see the flaws in these characters. I don't know it kind of annoys me.

I see and can understand where you're coming from, especially with the overhyped thing. I feel that way about Arrow's Felicity Smoak, for example. I also agree it's a problem if the characters that are flawed have their flaws ignored or defended rather than appreciated as simply dimensions of the character that fuel storytelling and add texture. I suppose when I think of flawed characters, particularly female characters, I think of the characters on Orange is The New Black who all are messed up in various ways but are compelling and inspiring. Sometimes they're not inspiring because they do what's right or overcome, but because in their struggle or in their flaws one might be able to see oneself and not feel so alone. I believe it actually serves feminism to have women be portrayed and appreciated for the complex and diverse group that they are rather than some stereotype, monolith, or even binary.

I agree, but Harley has nothing to do with feminism. And that's ok!

I agree and disagree. While I agree that Harley herself isn't any sort of feminist role model, I do think it is feminist for a character like Harley to exist and even be celebrated by an enthusiastic fan base. Feminism is all about choice. If women want to love and get invested in a messed up yet fun anti-hero, then I don't think it's fair to question or belittle that choice. If women even say that Harely has helped them personally or has inspired them, then I don't think it's fair to question that either. Unless, of course, they are inspired by her choice in men or her propensity for criminal or violent acts!

[kivatt]

I see and can understand where you're coming from, especially with the overhyped thing. I feel that way about Arrow's Felicity Smoak, for example. I also agree it's a problem if the characters that are flawed have their flaws ignored or defended rather than appreciated as simply dimensions of the character that fuel storytelling and add texture. I suppose when I think of flawed characters, particularly female characters, I think of the characters on Orange is The New Black who all are messed up in various ways but are compelling and inspiring. Sometimes they're not inspiring because they do what's right or overcome, but because in their struggle or in their flaws one might be able to see oneself and not feel so alone. I believe it actually serves feminism to have women be portrayed and appreciated for the complex and diverse group that they are rather than some stereotype, monolith, or even binary.



I agree and disagree. While I agree that Harley herself isn't any sort of feminist role model, I do think it is feminist for a character like Harley to exist and even be celebrated by an enthusiastic fan base. Feminism is all about choice. If women want to love and get invested in a messed up yet fun anti-hero, then I don't think it's fair to question or belittle that choice. If women even say that Harely has helped them personally or has inspired them, then I don't think it's fair to question that either. Unless, of course, they are inspired by her choice in men or her propensity for criminal or violent acts!

Yeah, I am ashamed to admit that I have the strongest hipster mentality. I really dislike things that are popular to a degree. Even though I don't particularly care to Harley that much I do appreciate her as a character, especially being a female character that is being promoted. I just wish that DC would do the same thing with it's other female characters, and those of all colors. Hell it's the reason why I buy her book. Gotta support female characters. I would love for Wonder Woman to get the same love Harley receives.

But I do see Harley in a feminist light, seeing as that she should be seen as equals as Wonder Woman. Just she is different and flawed does not make her any more than Wonder Woman, and because she does not particularly stand for the same things.


and I am very disappointed I finished the latest season of Orange is the New Black.


and Wonder Woman really needs a new creative team.

[misslane]

But back to the point of why Wonder Woman isn't as popular right now as she should be?

I think it's mostly due to exposure outside of comics and trends surrounding female characters. Having success and exposure in live action or animation has a lot of impact. Wonder Woman hasn't had live action exposure for quite some time and her animated appearances have had mixed results. Aside from her animated movie, she's typically part of a larger ensemble that isn't centered on her mythological world or supporting cast, so to speak. Whereas Harley Quinn has been able to ride the wave of Batman's popularity in animated works that are based around her environment in Gotham and characters that one would expect of her so-called supporting cast. In terms of trends, women embrace female friendship portrayals, so having Harley as part of a female trio like the Gotham City Sirens adds to her appeal while, sadly, Wonder Woman, who one would expect to be more associated with sisterhood finds her most iconic representations as part of an all male trio. Hopefully, with the new live action portrayals and DC's superhero girl initiative, more people will become fans of Wonder Woman.

[kivatt]

I think it's mostly due to exposure outside of comics and trends surrounding female characters. Having success and exposure in live action or animation has a lot of impact. Wonder Woman hasn't had live action exposure for quite some time and her animated appearances have had mixed results. Aside from her animated movie, she's typically part of a larger ensemble that isn't centered on her mythological world or supporting cast, so to speak. Whereas Harley Quinn has been able to ride the wave of Batman's popularity in animated works that are based around her environment in Gotham and characters that one would expect of her so-called supporting cast. In terms of trends, women embrace female friendship portrayals, so having Harley as part of a female trio like the Gotham City Sirens adds to her appeal while, sadly, Wonder Woman, who one would expect to be more associated with sisterhood finds her most iconic representations as part of an all male trio. Hopefully, with the new live action portrayals and DC's superhero girl initiative, more people will become fans of Wonder Woman.

True, she needs work in that department. I honestly feel that an animated solo Wonder Woman movie, or a Wonder Woman cartoon show would do her justice. The Batman wave really helped that whole cast.

So what're you're saying is that DC should have its own version of A Force. Because I would love Wonder Woman teaming up with other female characters. While finally being the leader.


I do find it great that Johns is focusing this arc on Wonder Woman.