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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by square View Post
    HOLY!

    I'm shocked and not shocked at a comment like this.

    Hip hop is a genre rooted in black culture, despite three of the most popular artists in the genre ever being the Beastie Boys, Vanilla Ice, and Eminem (perhaps the suburban white consumers of the genre had a pinch of bias there, as well as the white gatekeepers who chose what was on MTV and sold at Sam Goody). I really don't think hip hop excludes whites at all. If you are a white person who loves hip hop and puts their heart into it, I really think you will be accepted into the culture. Reading Brothers' reply to Brevoort, he mentions being in Tokyo and feeling affinity to Japanese who love (and in many ways 'appropriate') the genre.

    BUT, Marvel and their Disney overlords (who, to be fair to them, I think are hands off in day to day publishing) are not white people who love hip hop as Woods loved golf. They are a corporate entity that is disproportionately white (and male) compared to America, and has made a marketing venture into an area of culture they have, as a company, had no interest in previously, and 'borrowed' from an ethnicity they have had only minor support for. This is something worth note.

    I think white people are welcome in black culture without cries of appropriation... except when they're actually appropriating.

    ~~~~~~
    @others

    I had no idea Copiel was black, much less from France, but Google set me straight as to why he was brought up in this thread. I'm no expert in this, but I think the experience of blacks in the world is somewhat removed from that of blacks in the States. While nobody would complain if he did a cover, I doubt he has a deep relationship with hip hop simply for being black, anymore than the average Japanese in Shibuya.

    But that's kind of my point...how do you know when the line is crossed between approriating and not appropriating another culture? I think you can agree that with such an arbitrary measurement, it's practically impossible to know when you've gone too far. In fact, I submit that there is no such thing as mis-appropriation; either you're legitimately enjoying another culture, or you're acting racist. For example, a white guy who sincerely enjoys rap, hip-hop, r&b, or jazz is not appropriating a single thing. He's just enjoying something. Appropriation can quickly become caricature. But there is no such thing, in my opinion, as mis-appropriation.

    Also, to be clear...are you saying that Copiel does NOT meet the right prerequisite because he is not African-American, but rather African-Franco? Please, please tell me I mis interpreted what you meant.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by square View Post
    Nope. You're making that up. Marvel is a company. Individuals are individuals. I specifically wrote that there is no issue with white people taking part in hip hop culture (in my experience). Marvel, as a company, has shown no support of the culture, and is "disproportionally white," as I wrote. Does that equal "the artist have to be black, american and also likes hip hop"? From my point of view, no. Since I specifically wrote that there is no problem with whites participating in hip hop culture. And I didn't say they had to be American, just that a French black person isn't necessarily connected to the culture of hip hop due to being black (even less than an American black person is for that matter). As for liking hip hop, that is a bonus when you're doing a project on the subject. Marvel, as a company that has no connection to the culture except that some musicians like them, is in a strange position. They are capitalising on a culture they have no hand in building, by a culture they have no hand in supporting.

    Thanks for playing, and pulling what you want out of a long post to support your point and ignoring the overall idea. It's a technique especially popular on the Internet these days, and one not supportive of real communicative conversation. If you honestly think my post was saying that only whites can make hip hop stuff, learn to read. And people complaining about black Johnny Storm are utter racists, for the record.

    By the way, hip hop is a genre, not a medium. Superheroes are a genre. Comics are a medium. So comparing hip hop and comics is comparing apples and meat. It's ridiculous.
    I agree with ALMOST all of this...except for the "being racist for not liking johnny storm" comment. I was pretty aggravated with that decision, but no so much with him being black. I could live with him being black...what really bothered me was that they kept his sister white. If they were both black they would have both been black, I would have been able to swallow the pill, but the fact they only made him black tells me that this is how that concersation went in the boardroom:

    "Alright so we need to appeal to the African-American demographic, but all our cast is white."
    "Well let's just make someone black. Marvel does it."
    "Sure! who should we go with?"
    "Well, we don't want to make Reed black cause he's our lead, and the thing's a rock monster so that wont count. Lets do johnny and sue"
    "How about JUST johnny? we don't want half our team to be black characters."
    "But...theyre brother and sister..."
    "Screw it. she is adopted. get me my white sue storm."

    And honestly, why are we making white superheroes black anyways? I would prefer movie/tv studios to just use black characters because this is basically saying "we don't wont to use existing black characters, but we need black characters in the movie to bring in a particular demographic." Both of those statements are offensive and ridiculous to me, but they need to make the bottom dollar, I get that, so I suck it up. But if you're gonna do it, at least don't half ass it...

    I guess I'm saying I'm mad that sue storm's white...huh...that sounds weird...

  3. #48
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    People throw that in to let us know that they are not racist... It's just... Interracial families are dumb, right?

    I mean I have a Haitian cousin who can pass for Eastern European, and Halle Berry can play a black woman despite being just as white, but blood or not (!) we shouldn't buy in to that. We can watch a damn movie where a teenager flies into space and gets turned into a rock monster, but the part about a black guy with a white sister is too much.

    Jordan is surely a tool (this totally isn't racist thinking if you know a black guy) and not an actor selected for his ability, which is why your next post will offer proof about your insight into casting, right? It's common knowledge that they just pick out black people to spotlight for the sake of rustling jimmies, so maybe you don't have to huh?
    Last edited by Kuwagaton; 07-22-2015 at 07:05 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    People throw that in to let us know that they are not racist... It's just... Interracial families are dumb, right?

    I mean I have a Haitian cousin who can pass for Eastern European, and Halle Berry can play a black woman despite being just as white, but blood or not (!) we shouldn't buy in to that. We can watch a damn movie where a teenager flies into space and gets turned into a rock monster, but the part about a black guy with a white sister is too much.

    Jordan is surely a tool (this totally isn't racist thinking if you know a black guy) and not an actor selected for his ability, which is why your next post will offer proof about your insight into casting, right? It's common knowledge that they just pick out black people to spotlight for the sake of rustling jimmies, so maybe you don't have to huh?
    I can't tell how much of your post is sarcasm so I'm gonna have hard time responding here...

    It's not that I mind interracial siblings, nor do I have a secret hatred for adopted children (I dislike all children equally). But I feel like the only reason she is adopted is so they had an excuse to make her white. Like, why? At least if you had just made them both black I would understand that you're doing that blackcasting thing that movies seem to be doing (Heimdall, Ben Urich) etc., which is bad enough, but still, I can accept that. But like I said, if you're gonna do it, you might as well just do it. you could have made them both black, both white, or you could of even had one that looks white and one that looks black. But I don't buy the whole "I wanted to explore the adopted relationship" thing.

    And I really don't think that FOX did it to "rustle jimmies". I just think they are trying to appeal to a African American demographic. What other reason would someone have to change these characters race other than the fact that there is a lot of white in these movies and shows.

    However, you never Marvel change the race of an minority character to white, and that's how I know they are doing this just to pander to minority audiences.

  5. #50
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Well at least we can agree that you had a hard time responding. "That black casting thing." Wonderful!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Well at least we can agree that you had a hard time responding. "That black casting thing." Wonderful!

    Well if there is a term for changing the races of a character to appeal to a demographic, I don't know it.

    Ultimately, heres the problem I have:

    Josh Trank went on record saying that he wanted to explore the aspect of an adopted brother/sister relationship. I don't know why you would feel the need to due that for a fantastic four film, but fine w/e. You don't need to make the character black to do that.

    Also, if you're saying that an adopted brother sister relationship is different than a blood relationship (I don't have adopted siblings, so I wouldn't know) you're changing the dynamic of their relationship. If you say that adopted siblings have the same relationship as blood siblings, then there is no justification for making them adopted other than giving the flmmakers an excuse to have black johnny and white sue.

    Now, if you wanted to make the fantastic four cast a little bit more diverse, I suppose that's acceptable as well. But if that's the case, why are you making them adopted?

    And people say that johnny's personality is determined by his race, and I suppose one could make that argument, but then, you have to ask, why not change the race of every character? lets make wolverine Asian, lets make professor x a women, and lets make nightcrawler transgender because their characters aren't necessarily defined by their gender/race.

    Straying from the source material is fine, because film is a different universe and a different format. But don't try to use some flimsy justification for wanting to put a black actor into a movie.

  7. #52
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    Holy shit I'm legitimately offended at this. Fuck you Marvel.

  8. #53
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    Problem as far as I see it is that Americans are too focused on race when it comes to diversity, Marvel actually have quite a diverse range of nationalities drawing their books at the moment, but apparently if they're not visibly different that's not enough. At the same time they're being lauded for their "diverse" characters who are still mainly Americans of various colours, sexes and sexual persuasions. It's quite amusing from a European viewpoint.

  9. #54
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    After being unveiled early last week, Marvel's hip-hop variant cover initiative was met with both enthusiasm and criticism, the latter reaction primarily stemming from the position that Marvel was appropriating hip-hop culture while not employing Black writers or artists on its current monthly titles (multiple Black artists are among the creators illustrating the hip-hop variants).
    Implying Marvel needs to hire black artists to rip off hip-hop album covers. This is just Social Justice Warriors at work; move along.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitster View Post
    Problem as far as I see it is that Americans are too focused on race when it comes to diversity, Marvel actually have quite a diverse range of nationalities drawing their books at the moment, but apparently if they're not visibly different that's not enough. At the same time they're being lauded for their "diverse" characters who are still mainly Americans of various colours, sexes and sexual persuasions. It's quite amusing from a European viewpoint.
    It's not amusing and this post is incredibly ignorant.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby_Hater666 View Post
    Holy shit I'm legitimately offended at this. Fuck you Marvel.
    Just curious? what is it specifically that you're offended by? Is it that you don't like hip-hop?

    I'm not being sarcastic btw, I legitimately want to know what it is about this that makes you upset.

  12. #57
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    I'll be offended if they don't do Illmatic. I'll be equally as offended if they don't do it justice either.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danileriver23 View Post
    Just curious? what is it specifically that you're offended by? Is it that you don't like hip-hop?

    I'm not being sarcastic btw, I legitimately want to know what it is about this that makes you upset.
    A company that's for years used tokenism to present the illusion of diversity is again reducing black people and culture down to an easy to swallow stereotype and lauding it is as some form of representation. All the while systematically and historically not employing writer or artists of color or women for that matter. Oh and when they do, they get trotted around the dog show as a shining beacon of Marvel's (faux) progressivism. It's insincere just like all of these "i don't see color responses".

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Implying Marvel needs to hire black artists to rip off hip-hop album covers. This is just Social Justice Warriors at work; move along.
    Yeah fuck social justice! Amiright?!?

  15. #60
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby_Hater666 View Post
    All the while systematically and historically not employing writer or artists of color or women for that matter.
    Currently or recently employed by Marvel Comics:
    Olivier Coipel (artist), Humberto Ramos (artist), G. Willow Wilson (writer), Kelly Sue DeConnick (writer), Sara Pichelli (artist), Tara Butters and Michele Fazekas (writers), Sana Amanat (editor)

    That's just off the top of my head.
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