Hopeless: How "Ant-Man" Failed the Legacy of the Wasp

[Michael P]

I am not going to read this whole thread to find out, but it was pretty clear in the movie that they are planning to bring Janet back, right?

She isn't dead, she is just in the microverse (so to speak) and we know it is possible to come back. Also, they made a point of NOT showing her face in the photo so they wouldn't be tied to a certain look for the actress.

She will come back, unaged.

This way we should get two new female super-heroes added to the lexicon, Wasp and Stinger.

This much is obvious to anyone with a brain, yes. (I'd put even odds on "unaged" vs. "aged", though.)

[Snikt]

As the only female protagonist, Hope is immediately set up for failure; as is the case with this particular trope, which is prevalent throughout the MCU, she must fill the hopes and desires of all women in her respective film. That is, where there is a variety of personalities among the men with which the audience can identify, you either enjoy or dislike Hope; there are no alternatives. She must be everything for all women and the men who enjoy female character

By that insane logic, where is the nerdy-overweight-french/german-atheist-superhero I can identify with? I DEMAND more representation! This is unacceptable!

Hope does not represent all women, because it is NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE MOVIE TO REPRESENT ITS AUDIENCE!

[KunTa KonG]

By that insane logic, where is the nerdy-overweight-french/german-atheist-superhero I can identify with? I DEMAND more representation! This is unacceptable!

Hope does not represent all women, because it is NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE MOVIE TO REPRESENT ITS AUDIENCE!

Exactly plus role models should be chosen on their characte, morals, and their actions. NOT THEIR GENDER OR RACE. If you can only identify with someone based on your gender or race, youre shallow.

I'm black and my role models through the years have been john leguizamo, adam ferrara, Cher from clueless, batman, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc

[vaf2675]

I don't believe they were trying to marginalize Hope.

I believe the whole situation was perfectly explained in the conversation that Scott and Hope had in her car after she stormed off on them. Scott basically explains to her, that the reason her dad wants him to take on the Ant-Man suit and pull off this caper is because he is expendable. Basically, Hank is willing to risk Scott's life, but not his daughter's. And can you blame Hank for thinking this way after what happened to his wife? I sure as hell wouldn't want my daughter anywhere near a situation that could end in my losing her, so I perfectly understand Hank's mindset.

[devil leonx]

I don't believe they were trying to marginalize Hope.

I believe the whole situation was perfectly explained in the conversation that Scott and Hope had in her car after she stormed off on them. Scott basically explains to her, that the reason her dad wants him to take on the Ant-Man suit and pull off this caper is because he is expendable. Basically, Hank is willing to risk Scott's life, but not his daughter's. And can you blame Hank for thinking this way after what happened to his wife? I sure as hell wouldn't want my daughter anywhere near a situation that could end in my losing her, so I perfectly understand Hank's mindset.

Well said!!

[thetrellan]

I don't believe they were trying to marginalize Hope.

I believe the whole situation was perfectly explained in the conversation that Scott and Hope had in her car after she stormed off on them. Scott basically explains to her, that the reason her dad wants him to take on the Ant-Man suit and pull off this caper is because he is expendable. Basically, Hank is willing to risk Scott's life, but not his daughter's. And can you blame Hank for thinking this way after what happened to his wife? I sure as hell wouldn't want my daughter anywhere near a situation that could end in my losing her, so I perfectly understand Hank's mindset.

It begs the question why he let her master the suit, cozy up to his enemy and spy for him though. After all that, her life is in no more danger for taking up the role of Wasp. He actually groomed for the job, then changed his mind at the last second. And in so doing cost himself a clean theft.

Or did he? It stands to reason that his enemy never released information to anyone prematurely. Especially to the daughter of his biggest rival. And hindsight suggests this was the case.

Without Scott, Jan would have been walking alone into a trap. And I suspect Henry sensed that. It explains why he was so willing to bring Scott's colleagues in on the job.

[kalorama]

It begs the question why he let her master the suit, cozy up to his enemy and spy for him though. After all that, her life is in no more danger for taking up the role of Wasp. He actually groomed for the job, then changed his mind at the last second. And in so doing cost himself a clean theft.

Or did he? It stands to reason that his enemy never released information to anyone prematurely. Especially to the daughter of his biggest rival. And hindsight suggests this was the case.

Without Scott, Jan would have been walking alone into a trap. And I suspect Henry sensed that. It explains why he was so willing to bring Scott's colleagues in on the job.

I don't think Hank didn't "groom" or "let" Hope do anything. The implication was that she went to work for the company, under Cross, on her own after her mother died and her father became estranged. She was a legitimate employee and executive (and, I imagine, Cross was glad to have her, in part because it was another thing he could stick it to Hank with). She didn't start to collaborate with Hank until much later (or, more recently, in relationship to the time frame of the film), after she discovered that Cross was recreating Hank's work on the Pym particles and that he was becoming unstable.

[chamber-music]

I don't think Hank didn't "groom" or "let" Hope do anything. The implication was that she went to work for the company, under Cross, on her own after her mother died and her father became estranged. She was a legitimate employee and executive (and, I imagine, Cross was glad to have her, in part because it was another thing he could stick it to Hank with). She didn't start to collaborate with Hank until much later (or, more recently, in relationship to the time frame of the film), after she discovered that Cross was recreating Hank's work on the Pym particles and that he was becoming unstable.

Exactly.

Hope's alliance with her father was a recent thing. Hope was chairwoman at the company and helped Cross oust her father from his role as CEO. Hope assumed she would be suiting up while Hank had Scott in mind to become Ant-man.

[thetrellan]

I don't think Hank didn't "groom" or "let" Hope do anything. The implication was that she went to work for the company, under Cross, on her own after her mother died and her father became estranged. She was a legitimate employee and executive (and, I imagine, Cross was glad to have her, in part because it was another thing he could stick it to Hank with). She didn't start to collaborate with Hank until much later (or, more recently, in relationship to the time frame of the film), after she discovered that Cross was recreating Hank's work on the Pym particles and that he was becoming unstable.

I got this impression as well. But he groomed her for the job nonetheless. There is no way she could have accessed the technology of the Ant Man suit without him as a mentor. He didn't deliberately groom her, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[JimRaynor55]

By that insane logic, where is the nerdy-overweight-french/german-atheist-superhero I can identify with? I DEMAND more representation! This is unacceptable!

No need to strawman here. Also, wanting the female lead to be better handled is not "insane logic." Asking for a meaningful character within the same gender as half the human race is not asking for representstion throughout an entire list of specific traits.

Hope does not represent all women, because it is NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE MOVIE TO REPRESENT ITS AUDIENCE!

The only actual "purpose" of the movie is to make money, but fans have wishes and demands over all sorts of other things, ranging from general quality to faithfulness to the comics on very specific details. It seems that wishes for diversity are just one of the things that get bashed on the internet though.

Exactly plus role models should be chosen on their characte, morals, and their actions. NOT THEIR GENDER OR RACE. If you can only identify with someone based on your gender or race, youre shallow.

Women and minorities have had little choice but to identify with white males since white males are the vast majority of lead roles in Hollywood movies. They've been doing that for decades now.

But why are they "shallow" if they supposedly don't identify with the movie characters they're given? Wouldn't typical white male audiences be shallow too if they couldn't identify with a female or minority character?

By trotting out the same white male leads in almost every film, Hollywood reinforces existing biases and stereotypes. It's part of why women still struggle for equal opportunity in the workplace, and why white men are held up as the superior ideal compared to blacks, hispanics, and Asians.

I'm not going to demand that every popcorn action movie emphasize gender or diversity issues, but with Ant-Man, we had a clear case of a prominent female superhero being minimized from the MCU. Her replacement was given the standard "strong female character" treatment but explicitly sidelined anyway for no good reason but her father's insecurity. The script deviated from screenwriting 101 by not even having her rebel against the unfair restraints of her authority figure. As I said in previous pages in this thread, any other movie would've had the sheltered character defying orders and taking a more active role in the mission.

It would've cost them nothing to give Hope a bigger role in the heist, or to make one of the thieves on the team a woman.

[JimRaynor55]

I don't believe they were trying to marginalize Hope.

I believe the whole situation was perfectly explained in the conversation that Scott and Hope had in her car after she stormed off on them. Scott basically explains to her, that the reason her dad wants him to take on the Ant-Man suit and pull off this caper is because he is expendable. Basically, Hank is willing to risk Scott's life, but not his daughter's. And can you blame Hank for thinking this way after what happened to his wife? I sure as hell wouldn't want my daughter anywhere near a situation that could end in my losing her, so I perfectly understand Hank's mindset.

It was explained but not justified. The movie gave weight to Hank's insecurities but not so much Hope's independence or even qualifications for the mission. Hank jeopardized the mission and the world by going out of the way to recruit an ex-con who was far less skilled than his daughter, just because he couldn't get over his own feelings. Instead of calling him on that, the script sympathized with him, then gently let him off the hook by having him change his own mind in a post-credits scene after the actual plot was over.

[kalorama]

I got this impression as well. But he groomed her for the job nonetheless. There is no way she could have accessed the technology of the Ant Man suit without him as a mentor. He didn't deliberately groom her, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If it wasn't deliberate then, by definition, he wasn't actually grooming her for anything.

That being said, she had access to the design of Cross's Yellowjacket suit, which functioned on the same principles as the Ant-Man suit. In fact, it was her access to/knowledge of the Yellowjacket project that lead her back to her father in the first place, to try and shut Cross down. So she would have some basic knowledge of the tech before she approached her father. Once that partnership was formed, Hank familiarizing her with the suit's function was a logical move, even if it was never her plan to have her wear it. (If for no other reason than because he knew that if he didn't, she'd try to do it herself.)

[Michael P]

It was explained but not justified. The movie gave weight to Hank's insecurities but not so much Hope's independence or even qualifications for the mission. Hank jeopardized the mission and the world by going out of the way to recruit an ex-con who was far less skilled than his daughter, just because he couldn't get over his own feelings. Instead of calling him on that, the script sympathized with him, then gently let him off the hook by having him change his own mind in a post-credits scene after the actual plot was over.

Yes, how dare he love his daughter and miss his wife so much that he couldn't bear to lose her, too. That utter cad.

[JimRaynor55]

His feelings were understandable, but the problem is that the script set up this conflict with his daughter and then failed pay off on it until a post-credits scene. A scene that 90% of the theater audience did not even see because they had walked out already (most moviegoers aren't geeks who even know about the whole post-credits thing). The movie plays his overprotectivness for angst, not as the character flaw that it logically is due to the stakes of the plot. We're told that Hope is a strong woman, but she still doesn't overcome her father's coddling. She only proceeds onto the next step with his permission.

[thetrellan]

If it wasn't deliberate then, by definition, he wasn't actually grooming her for anything.

That being said, she had access to the design of Cross's Yellowjacket suit, which functioned on the same principles as the Ant-Man suit. In fact, it was her access to/knowledge of the Yellowjacket project that lead her back to her father in the first place, to try and shut Cross down. So she would have some basic knowledge of the tech before she approached her father. Once that partnership was formed, Hank familiarizing her with the suit's function was a logical move, even if it was never her plan to have her wear it. (If for no other reason than because he knew that if he didn't, she'd try to do it herself.)

There is no evidence the Cross' design had any function other than to shrink the user. And if Hank did indeed familiarize her so she could get close to Cross, then we're back to him grooming her for the job.

I think he had always planned to send her in myself. But when Cross had his breakthrough it forced him to act before he was prepared. He wasn't willing to risk her life on an accelerated schedule. That's why he needed a professional thief, to have the benefit of someone used to adapting his plan on the fly. That's what the vault test showed.

Don't forget the Wasp suit in the works. It's not like he could just whip that up as a consolation prize on the spur of the moment. It's existence suggests he was going to send her in at some point.