Hopeless: How "Ant-Man" Failed the Legacy of the Wasp

[Forseti]

I remember the days when people judged movies based upon what they showed. Nowadays, it seems it's much more important to harp on and on about elements from a different medium that aren't shown in a particular movie, even if that movie isn't an adaption of anything. I guess I'm getting old, because I can't get my head around that.

[Blue Reloaded]

That is exactly the point though. Why the hell should she need 3 movies to get anything? Its even worse when they've announced pretty much everything for the next 4 years.

At one to two movies a year, what movies should they have cut out or replaced to fit a Black Widow in? How long could the public wait between sequels before becoming disinterested in the characters/story?
These are all things the MCU executives need to weigh when deciding what movies to release.

The MCU aren't comics--the time, resources, and availabilities are limited.

[Hi-Fi]

Winter Soldier was the third movie Black Widow appeared in. In her first appearance she was even less of a significant presence than Hope in Ant-Man. In other words, her character was built and developed over time. There's no reason to think they can't or won't do the dame with Hope.

So you agree with me that Hope was not a well-developed character and that they didn't mind postponing decent characterization to their female protagonist?

DISCLAIMER: I'm a HUGE fan of the MCU and don't actually mind how they've been portraying their women. I love Pepper Potts, Widow and Peggy. This is about Ant-Man. Though I will say that the fact that we're 12 movies in and we only have Widow and Scarlet Witch as super-heroines is telling.

[kalorama]

That is exactly the point though. Why the hell should she need 3 movies to get anything? Its even worse when they've announced pretty much everything for the next 4 years.

The whole point of having a shared universe with intertwined, ongoing narratives is that allows characters and stories to be built up and continued over time. This is particularly true with regard to supporting characters, who don't get the big spotlight because they're not the stars.

[kalorama]

So you agree with me that Hope was not a well-developed character and that they didn't mind postponing decent characterization to their female protagonist?

Nope. Nice try though.

She was developed well enough to fulfill her role in this film and to set up interest/lay ground work for her participation in future stories. Could she have gotten more development? Sure. But you could say that about pretty much any character in any narrative.

[Slant]

The whole point of having a shared universe with intertwined, ongoing narratives is that allows characters and stories to be built up and continued over time. This is particularly true with regard to supporting characters, who don't get the big spotlight because they're not the stars.

Its just a cop out to always go "There's possibilities next time", because you can always use it every time someone says something.

[Hi-Fi]

Its just a cop out to always go "There's possibilities next time", because you can always use it every time someone says something.

Exactly. And Feige already said Hope/Wasp isn't in Civil War because the movie was getting too crowded.

I predict a Wasp debut in 2019 <3

[MagnusRex]

I bet if Edgar Wright didn't leave the movie the legacy of the Wasp wouldn't have been failed. Slanted ass article.

[kalorama]

Its just a cop out to always go "There's possibilities next time", because you can always use it every time someone says something.

Nope. It's simply an objective acknowledgement of how serial storytelling works. Not every character is going to get a fully-realized arc in the first installment of a story. That's just not how it works.

[Blue Reloaded]

So, what films should have been cut out, replaced, or pushed? Keep in mind that Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and Captain America are four of their most well-known characters they control.

1. Incredible Hulk
2. Iron Man
3. Iron Man 2
4. Thor
5. CA: TFA
6. Avengers
7. Iron Man 3
8. Thor: TDW
9. CA: TWS
10. GotG
11. Avengers 2
12. Ant-Man

[Slant]

Nope. It's simply an objective acknowledgement of how serial storytelling works.

No, it can always be pushed back. Always be hinted at for something later. But in the end, its meaningless until it actually happens. Plans are only plans. And they can change, as we've seen how Spider-Man made them push back other movies.

[Optimus]

How is Janet’s fate any different than Bucky’s in the first Captain America? Are we really just mad because it happened to a woman this time? The only stories we can tell with women are the ones where they are powerful and strong and take over the whole movie or people get upset? Janet saved the day in her one scene, when Hank couldn’t. But oh, let’s forget about that.

Is the complaint really that Janet is barely in the movie? What did you want them to do? Have Janet played by Sally Field as a 70 year old super hero flying around? Or did you want her to be Hank’s daughter and become Scott’s girlfriend instead? The moment we found out that Hank was played by Michael Douglas and that the movie would be about Scott is the moment when everyone should have realized Janet wouldn’t have much of a role.

And the movie IS called Ant Man. It’s not called Ant Man and the Wasp. Maybe it should have been, that could have been a cool movie. But that isn’t what happened. It’s not even that different from the comic is it? The comic starts out with just Hank Pym in Tales to Astonish 27, he has several solo adventures and then the Wasp appears in Tales to Astonish 44. The Wasp is added to this movie at the end, and you know she’ll be there in the sequel. The whole sequel very well may center around rescuing Janet, btw, much like Captain America 2 centered around Bucky.

[Hi-Fi]

How is Janet’s fate any different than Bucky’s in the first Captain America? Are we really just mad because it happened to a woman this time? The only stories we can tell with women are the ones where they are powerful and strong and take over the whole movie or people get upset? Janet saved the day in her one scene, when Hank couldn’t. But oh, let’s forget about that.

Is the complaint really that Janet is barely in the movie? What did you want them to do? Have Janet played by Sally Field as a 70 year old super hero flying around? Or did you want her to be Hank’s daughter and become Scott’s girlfriend instead? The moment we found out that Hank was played by Michael Douglas and that the movie would be about Scott is the moment when everyone should have realized Janet wouldn’t have much of a role.

And the movie IS called Ant Man. It’s not called Ant Man and the Wasp. Maybe it should have been, that could have been a cool movie. But that isn’t what happened. It’s not even that different from the comic is it? The comic starts out with just Hank Pym in Tales to Astonish 27, he has several solo adventures and then the Wasp appears in Tales to Astonish 44. The Wasp is added to this movie at the end, and you know she’ll be there in the sequel. The whole sequel very well may center around rescuing Janet, btw, much like Captain America 2 centered around Bucky.

Bucky was an ACTUAL character in the movie, with lines and personality, not a faceless woman in a photo. Bucky's death is also integral to Steve's journey since the comics.

And there's no word of a sequel. We don't even know we're getting one, since Feige said before this movie would work as an introduction to Ant-Man and Wasp to the bigger MCU.

[ktralfam]

As far as the “refrigerated woman” trope goes, I think it’s nominally reactionary to have that reaction to every single case of a woman character that meets an unkind fate.

The fridging trope is specifically when a villain murders a male character's love interest just to get under their skin.

That is not what happened in this film at all. Janet died heroically saving the world, and not at all at the hands of a villain. She sacrificed herself.

And that's when I stopped reading because the author doesn't even know what the tropes she's talking about actually are, other than to use the word "trope" 500 times in her poorly written article.

[kalorama]

How is Janet’s fate any different than Bucky’s in the first Captain America?

Or Uncle Ben in the Spider-Man? Or Uncle Ben in Amazing Spider-Man? Or the Waynes in Batman? Or the Waynes in Batman Begins? Or Ra's Al Ghul's in Batman Begins? Or Jack Murdock in Daredevil? Or Nikolas Natchios in Daredevil?