Emma Frost = Bad Xmen

[DDD]

Magneto worked because it had shock value back then and it "kind" of made sense if you ignored the original 05 run entirely. Most importantly, it didn't last long. He was back to being a grade A weewee shortly after.

[OldManLogan]

None of this excuses Emma of her crimes, though. Nice try at deflection.

In your opinion. Doesn't change the fact that Emma has been with the good guys for more time than she's been a villain now. Not all of us are stuck in the 80s :P

I don't understand how some extra sensitive SJW can even actually forgive Emma. The HFC was the voice of Colonialism, Plantation Owners, etcetera. But she has a nice pair of legs (sexist reason to forgive a woman) so that's "okay". The writers an editors messed up facts around like a bad daytime Soap Opera to change her.

'She has a nice pair of legs' was never the reason she was forgiven. Instantly jumping to that conclusion, despite no interviews or panels to back that up is a pretty sexist thought though, IMO.

[Londo Bellian]

Her very existence spawns conflict. Among readers from casual to nothing-else-matters.

Some might say her characterization that inspires these arguments make her awesome. Some think otherwise.

I have things to say about Emma the character both praising her and condemning her too. But in the end I can just watch and see.

[DDD]

She has a nice pair of legs' was never the reason she was forgiven. Instantly jumping to that conclusion, despite no interviews or panels to back that up is a pretty sexist thought though, IMO.

Since every questionable action of hers is entirely being glossed over, being "sexy" and "ambiguously bad" are obviously the only 2 reasons she has fans.

In your opinion. Doesn't change the fact that Emma has been with the good guys for more time than she's been a villain now. Not all of us are stuck in the 80s :P

Okay, so she a ruthless killer and careerist but that was in the 80s. If she's "totally changed", why did she choose to act that way before for so long? Had she no intelligence in the 80s?

[DarkMagnus]

For things like this i Love Emma.

She is the realism of the X-men the voice in their head telling, we can be good but no idiots if they can they will kill us.

Dont attack until they do first.

[darkalamator]

I love Emma Frost. She's the most interesting, compelling X-Men character, IMO. And I love that people love to hate her. She's just very controversial. It's great. I probably wouldn't give a **** about comic books if it weren't for Emma, and I definitely wouldn't be posting on these boards now.



http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ssistedSuicide

LOL!!!!!!

100% agree

[Londo Bellian]

In the Beast's Lair (Nasuverse) Forums, Emma's "alignment" would be "Evil Good".

...

It's a joke, sonny.

[OldManLogan]

Since every questionable action of hers is entirely being glossed over, being "sexy" and "ambiguously bad" are obviously the only 2 reasons she has fans.

Yeah, obviously...
The point is, her questionable actions aren't being glossed over. Some fans are satisfied with the explanation that the death of her students changed her. You're not, I guess.

Okay, so she a ruthless killer and careerist but that was in the 80s. If she's "totally changed", why did she choose to act that way before for so long? Had she no intelligence in the 80s?

It doesn't matter how long it took her to change, because what triggered her change wasn't time, it was traumatic experience. It could've happened earlier, later, or not even happen at all, in which case she would probably still be a villain. But it did happen and that's when she turned over a new leaf.
I find most of the "redemption" arcs in comics really weak because in general they're just soft reboots (see yoga's example of Magneto basically being reborn) and feel like the writer is trying way too hard. Emma's transition back in the day was refreshing for me because it was simple and believable, and most important, it didn't feel forced.

[sureshot]

Emma has done some evil things. So has Wolverine but almost no one really called him out before his "death". This is the character who kills off a bunch of his illegimate children in a blind rage. Then is made the headmaster of a school shortly after. Having her complete villain now makes no sense. It's like how they turned Black Cat from a likeable anti-hero to a complete psycho sociopath. All because a writer wanted her as a villain. Pretty much ruining the character and getting some spider-man fans angry. If and I hope they don't make her a villain give a good reason in character. Not because writer XYZ just has to have her as a villain. If they had not waited so long and written so much character development. Now it would have to be a big retcon to make it work if it does.

[sureshot]

Yeah, obviously...
The point is, her questionable actions aren't being glossed over. Some fans are satisfied with the explanation that the death of her students changed her. You're not, I guess.

It doesn't matter how long it took her to change, because what triggered her change wasn't time, it was traumatic experience. It could've happened earlier, later, or not even happen at all, in which case she would probably still be a villain. But it did happen and that's when she turned over a new leaf.
I find most of the "redemption" arcs in comics really weak because in general they're just soft reboots (see yoga's example of Magneto basically being reborn) and feel like the writer is trying way too hard. Emma's transition back in the day was refreshing for me because it was simple and believable, and most important, it didn't feel forced.

Agreed and seconded on both posts. Were not fans because the character is simply sexy or ambiguously bad. The death of her students changed her. Which is a hell of lot better then a character being inverted into a good guy like Sabertooth. Most "redemption arcs" are weak or when retconned take too long to do. When a villain turned her reverts back again it feels so forced too often. As if they learn nothing when having been a hero. If a character used to leave a huge body count as a villain and becomes one again he does the same thing. Anything learned as a hero feels like they received a personality lobotomy. If the same happens to Emma Frost I simply ignore the character and read others with more personality. As villains in Marvel with few exceptions have none. Most I would say 90-95 % are a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs with no brain cells and no personality beyond commiting crimes and casually killing people imo.

[Tracer Bullet]

It's been mostly a moot point for awhile now. Emma has been relegated to background character status for the past couple years since breaking up with Cyclops while at the same time being stuck on his team. Apparently, the X-office doesn't have much to say for her if it doesn't involve being Cyclops' girlfriend. Once the X-books are relaunched after Secret Wars in the fall, Emma will be among the missing mutants. Honestly, unless one of the new writers is a big fan of hers and pulls her into one of the new books, her time in the spotlight may have passed.

Emma is somewhat reminiscent of a generational character. In the 80s, flashy and whimsical characters like Dazzler and Longshot were popular. In the 90s, cool and bad-ass characters like Gambit and Bishop were popular. In the 00s, snarky and materialistic Emma appeals to our increasingly vain, reality TV show drama-obssessed culture. It's the 10s now, but our culture is still pretty similar to how it was to the previous decade, so Emma still has some appeal, but I can see how to some people, her act is getting a little old. Eventually, her star will fade unless she changes.

So much this.^^^^^^^^^^


But I also hate the ways they've found to undermine her past villainy(retconning her into being dominated by Shaw) as if to suggest she was anything other than a ruthless, shrewd, self-possessed, opportunist. And she didn't need to be a fake boobed, dye job, fraud either. Or a Jean-lite omega telepath. I dislike a lot of post Gen X Emma qualities.

[yogaflame]

So much this.^^^^^^^^^^


But I also hate the ways they've found to undermine her past villainy(retconning her into being dominated by Shaw) as if to suggest she was anything other than a ruthless, shrewd, self-possessed, opportunist. And she didn't need to be a fake boobed, dye job, fraud either. Or a Jean-lite omega telepath. I dislike a lot of post Gen X Emma qualities.

The dynamics with Shaw really get me. How can being reduced to a "stripper caught up with a bad crowd", instead of being a shrewd calculating opportunist, sit well with nuEmma fans?

Remember that awesome speech Ann Nocenti had her make with Tessa about being a warrior in her armor?



Nope, nevermind, just a bimbo with a rough John.

[OldManLogan]

Pff come on yoga, try harder. Emma fans were the first to complain about the retcons, both Fraction's and the one in her Origins story. Not giving up on the character doesn't make anyone a 'nuEmma fan', whatever that means. You should be familiar with that after Storm's "Stormbot" phase :P

Besides, as far as character depth goes, I don't see much of a difference between a bimbo and a mustache twirling villain, which is what Emma was before she got some prominence.

[Arya]

Emma Frost is an incredible and complex character. She grew up in a completely corrupt family and learned to count and trust herself only. As she got more experienced with her telepathy she became more confident with herself and she felt it put her above others. However, she still had a soft spot and that was teaching students. It wasn't until the Hellions death (A great loss that still haunts her to this day) where she saw the error of her ways. This shocked her into no longer taking part in the wicked acts she did before and instead do what she did best (Teaching) for the good side.

While Emma made her transition as a good guy, she still kept her morals and did not stop being herself. While she is far from perfect, Emma is truly the most genuine member of the X-Men. While many writers have tried teasing her going back to being bad, Emma just keeps proving that she is a valuable member of the X-Men While she may not be the clear cut definition of a super hero like Captain America or Storm, Emma is certainly a hero in her own regard.

What morals? Emma's draw is that she never had morals. She uses sex as power. There is nothing wrong with that but pretending she's more noble than she is is wrong too. She was never really an X-man. She just got lucky scewing the boss. No one could ever really trust her and she thrived on that.

[Londo Bellian]

The boob job "retcon" I can accept, but Emma being a bottle-blond? Puh-lease, she's not Ritsuko Akagi.

I must lean with Arya on the default!Emma characterization having zero morals. Wasn't a main schtick of the HFC being that its members have cast off the shackles of contemporary human morality and relish holding that over the rest of the world if covertly? She wouldn't have become White Queen if her lack of morality was half-hearted at the time.

BUT! She has become popular these days regardless of that because the people of today admire jerkasses and belittle paragons. Imagine the stunt DC pulled on Supes with the Truth event, weakening him, outing his ID, all to force him to be more human and flawed...and a jerkass. It's what we put on pedestals now.