Who do you think will be the next writer?

[Vanguard-01]

I think the different to me about the examples you've given is that all of the Americans who practiced slavery and killed Native Americans for their land are now dead. Most(if not all) of the Amazons(being an immortal race) who participated in the raids are still alive. If they were to face an American judge and jury, they would most likely be sentenced to life in prison without any chance of parole. I just don't think they should be walking around freely without having paid a significant debt to the society of those that they killed.

Nope.

When slavery was abolished in the US, slave owners were NOT punished in any way for having owned and abused slaves. They were only forbidden from continuing to own slaves, but there was no effort to punish them for crimes that weren't crimes until slavery became illegal. Those former slave owners went on about their lives and were never punished for what they did unless they continued to do what was now illegal.

And maybe the Amazons WILL pay their debt back to the world. Just not now. Right now? They don't think they DO owe the world a debt for their crimes, because they haven't yet understood that what they did WERE crimes. Once Diana's reforms take hold and the Amazons begin to realize the wrongness of what they did? I'm sure the Amazons WILL consider it their responsibility to make up for past mistakes.

Also? In a way the Amazons have ALWAYS been paying off their debt. They have been protecting Doom's Doorway. They have protected the world for thousands of years from all manner of otherworldly horrors. And they will continue to do so now. So yes, they did some bad things to a few men. They also protected the entire world from being ravaged by monsters, and continue to protect it still.

Now should they do MORE as a form of penance for their misdeeds? Sure. And with Diana's guidance, they will hopefully decide to do exactly that. But once again: they need to first realize that they were wrong and that they DO owe the world for their mistakes.

I do hope that you're right about Strife influencing the raids or perhaps Hephaestus was just lying about the raids to get Diana to take a particular action.

So do I.

Strife has been a near-constant presence in this story from day one. And yet despite all that, she's really had very little impact on the progress of the story. She mostly just shows up to be annoying. If Azz's run were to end right now? Strife would seem like a completely superfluous character who really contributed nothing of import to the story. Having it be revealed that she somehow had a MASSIVE impact on the entire story near the end, however, will be dramatic and make her constant presence suddenly make sense.

As for Hephaestus? I've been saying it for a while: Hephaestus is not an unbiased source of information here, I remind you. He already has a problem with women who are so cavalier with their children, based on his own history with Hera. It's quite possible that his account of the raids was ENTIRELY colored with his own bias. We also know that Heph is not opposed to being manipulative. He made that pin for Strife, knowing full well that she intended to use it against his "sister" about whom he claims to care. I won't be surprised if Heph turns out to be not as trustworthy as we've been led to think.

Another important thing to remember is something I've learned from talking to the people on this forum who are Azzarello fans. I've never read anything Azzarello ever wrote before this story, so I don't know his writing tendencies. But the Azz fans on this forum have mentioned it several times: one of Azz's signature storytelling maneuvers is to introduce a plot point, then ignore it for a long time, then come back near the end of the story and reveal that everything is NOT as it seemed. I'm thinking we may be seeing a twist or two coming pretty soon.

[Amazon Swordsman]

Pre52, Wonder Woman went through many 'soft reboots' with each new writer on board. Sounds to me much of the same can happen here when new writers get on this book.

Agreed, which is why I wouldn't mind things from azz's run to be abolished. I think that even with Diana's pre-52soft 'reboots', Diana at least had a small sense of continuity/consistency until azarello took over her. For example, even Gail Simone added a little depth to her origin by making slight changes, but she didn't overstep her boundaries to make it an outright lie.

[Vanguard-01]

Agreed, which is why I wouldn't mind things from azz's run to be abolished. I think that even with Diana's pre-52soft 'reboots', Diana at least had a small sense of continuity/consistency until azarello took over her. For example, even Gail Simone added a little depth to her origin by making slight changes, but she didn't overstep her boundaries to make it an outright lie.

There were no boundaries for Azz to overstep. He was completely re-launching the Wonder Woman franchise and he decided to give her a new, more relatable origin story.

Azz changes CAN'T have a sense of continuity/consistency because Wonder Woman's continuity BEGINS WITH HIM.

[Carabas]

Agreed, which is why I wouldn't mind things from azz's run to be abolished. I think that even with Diana's pre-52soft 'reboots', Diana at least had a small sense of continuity/consistency until azarello took over her. For example, even Gail Simone added a little depth to her origin by making slight changes, but she didn't overstep her boundaries to make it an outright lie.

I just have to say that nothing Azzarello has had the Amazons do is even remotely as bad as when they went all-in villainous for Amazons Attack.
Diana herself is essentially unchanged from the old continuity. She's a lot closer to Gail Simone's Diana (didn't that one have the power of Zus as well?) and a lot closer to her old self than most current DC characters.

[Amazon Swordsman]

There were no boundaries for Azz to overstep. He was completely re-launching the Wonder Woman franchise and he decided to give her a new, more relatable origin story.

Azz changes CAN'T have a sense of continuity/consistency because Wonder Woman's continuity BEGINS WITH HIM.

I'm sorry, I don't exactly know what you mean when you say "there were no boundaries to overstep". Could you elaborate a bit? I disagree, IMO Azz could've re-launched the character, and told the EXACT same story he wanted to without making changes to the character that I think were pointless. Zola, Zeke, Amazon Sex pirates, First Born, Orion, London, take it...take it...take it...away.

And no, giving her a daddy doesn't make her relatable. Yes, biologically everyone has a father. But socially, everyone doesn't have a father figure.

[SofNascimento]

I'm not sure if I can say this, but I don't think any other writer will be able to keep up with the quality of Azzarello's work. Azzarello managed to explore Diana character in subtle ways and show that what defines her is her inner strength... her heart. Not to mention the absolute unparalled (at least in WW mythos) world and character building performed by Azz. Soule is doing a very good job in SMWW, but he lacks the vision Azzarello has to this word, Soule interpretation is different, it's too traditional, too stuck in past mediocracy.

Maybe a writer with a heavy Vertigo (or similar) background? Someone who is used to this more subtle and refined tone?

[Carabas]

I'm sorry, I don't exactly know what you mean when you say "there were no boundaries to overstep". Could you elaborate a bit? I disagree, IMO Azz could've re-launched the character, and told the EXACT same story he wanted to without making changes to the character that I think were pointless. Zola, Zeke, Amazon Sex pirates, First Born, Orion, London, take it...take it...take it...away.

How exactly does one tell the EXACT same story withoutr most of the elements making up that story? Including the Big Bad?

[Amazon Swordsman]

I just have to say that nothing Azzarello has had the Amazons do is even remotely as bad as when they went all-in villainous for Amazons Attack.
Diana herself is essentially unchanged from the old continuity. She's a lot closer to Gail Simone's Diana (didn't that one have the power of Zus as well?) and a lot closer to her old self than most current DC characters.

I've never read Amazons Attack, so I can't comment on its alleged "badness".

She just doesn't seem very "wonderful" (pun intended) here in my opinion. Her characterization is far too angsty and I just couldn't get with it. Simone's WW could call on lightning through her bracelets I do believe, but she didn't need to be directly related to Zeus in order to do that, which is how it should've stayed IMO.

[Carabas]

I'm not sure if I can say this, but I don't think any other writer will be able to keep up with the quality of Azzarello's work. Azzarello managed to explore Diana character in subtle ways and show that what defines her is her inner strength... her heart. Not to mention the absolute unparalled (at least in WW mythos) world and character building performed by Azz. Soule is doing a very good job in SMWW, but he lacks the vision Azzarello has to this word, Soule interpretation is different, it's too traditional, too stuck in past mediocracy.

Maybe a writer with a heavy Vertigo (or similar) background? Someone who is used to this more subtle and refined tone?

I think it's less a matter of will the new writer be able to (I can easily name half a dozen that could) but if they editorially will be allowed to follow in Azzarello's footsteps.

[Dr. Poison]

I've never read Amazons Attack, so I can't comment on its alleged "badness".

She just doesn't seem very "wonderful" (pun intended) here in my opinion. Her characterization is far too angsty and I just couldn't get with it. Simone's WW could call on lightning through her bracelets I do believe, but she didn't need to be directly related to Zeus in order to do that, which is how it should've stayed IMO.

You didn't read Amazons Attack? Consider yourself one of the lucky few. It served as sort of an unrelated appetizer for Azzarello's Amazons. Thankfully, we can blame Circe for most of Amazons Attack. I'm hoping that by the time Azz's run is over, Strife will be to blame for the Amazon raids.

[Carabas]

You didn't read Amazons Attack? Consider yourself one of the lucky few. It served as sort of an unrelated appetizer for Azzarello's Amazons. Thankfully, we can blame Circe for most of Amazons Attack.

Can we? Didn't Gail retcon it to the actions of some Bana-Mighdals in Secret Six?

[Blacksun]

I'm not sure if I can say this, but I don't think any other writer will be able to keep up with the quality of Azzarello's work. Azzarello managed to explore Diana character in subtle ways and show that what defines her is her inner strength... her heart. Not to mention the absolute unparalled (at least in WW mythos) world and character building performed by Azz. Soule is doing a very good job in SMWW, but he lacks the vision Azzarello has to this word, Soule interpretation is different, it's too traditional, too stuck in past mediocracy.

Maybe a writer with a heavy Vertigo (or similar) background? Someone who is used to this more subtle and refined tone?

Past mediocracy? if it was only was Perez, Simone or Rucka mediocracy levels I would be happy. I don't know if Soule is trying, because if he is trying the result is too weak.

Haden Blackman wrote her very well in his Batwoman, his Elektra in marvel is receiving good reviews. too bad DC messed with him and JH Williams.

Kieron Gillen definately is subtitle, his new comics is about Gods incarnate in young people. Not even mentioning his experience with Loki, specially his fantastic journey into mistery

[Dr. Poison]

Can we? Didn't Gail retcon it to the actions of some Bana-Mighdals in Secret Six?

Beats me. I didn't read Secret Six.

[Vanguard-01]

I'm sorry, I don't exactly know what you mean when you say "there were no boundaries to overstep". Could you elaborate a bit? I disagree, IMO Azz could've re-launched the character, and told the EXACT same story he wanted to without making changes to the character that I think were pointless. Zola, Zeke, Amazon Sex pirates, First Born, Orion, London, take it...take it...take it...away.

...And who is Diana defending? Who is she fighting? What does Diana have to fix in her own society?

It's a new universe with new stories to tell. Azz chose a different origin story for Diana. Editorial didn't shoot it down. And no matter HOW many times you say it, the new origin doesn't hurt Diana's awesomeness in ANY WAY.

And no, giving her a daddy doesn't make her relatable. Yes, biologically everyone has a father. But socially, everyone doesn't have a father figure.

Diana didn't have a father figure either. She's a kid raised by a single mother who never knew her father. Plenty of people like that in the world today.

NOBODY, however, knows someone who was sculpted from clay and brought to life by several gods.

I've never read Amazons Attack, so I can't comment on its alleged "badness".

First few pages of the first book: an Amazon soldier cuts down an unarmed, innocent man AND THEN HIS EIGHT-YEAR-OLD-SON. In cold blood. No mercy. No compassion. No hesitation. She just killed the kid's dad, turned to the kid, looked down at him, and then cuts him down without blinking.

The Amazons were shown CHASING unarmed civilians through the streets of Washington D.C. One of those civilians was a WOMAN with her BABY in a stroller.

Hippolyta forced a camera crew to broadcast her demands for the United State's surrender. She then cut them both down without blinking the second she was done with them. Phillipus and Artemis were standing RIGHT THERE and didn't so much as protest.

No, for the record, the Amazons were emphatically NOT mind-controlled, possessed, or impaired in their judgement in ANY WAY. Editorial specifically forbade any such excuses for the Amazons. Only Hippolyta was under mind control. Every other Amazon was acting on her own will.

She just doesn't seem very "wonderful" (pun intended) here in my opinion. Her characterization is far too angsty and I just couldn't get with it. Simone's WW could call on lightning through her bracelets I do believe, but she didn't need to be directly related to Zeus in order to do that, which is how it should've stayed IMO.

Really? Not wonderful?

1.) Redeemed Ares with her compassion
2.) Redeemed Hera with her compassion
3.) Helped Hades experience love for the first time
4.) Spared the First Born when pragmatism dictated killing him
5.) Turned Siracca from an enemy into a friend and sister
6.) Refused to kill a minotaur who was trying to kill her
7.) Inspired Orion to stand up to High Father in order to protect Zeke
8.) Forgave Hermes despite his betrayal of her
9.) Swallowed her pride and submitted to Artemis in order to gain her assistance
10.) Surrendered information to Cassandra to save her brother from harm
11.) Called a stop to the sex raids the second she had the authority to do so
12.) Made the Amazons take care of an innocent male baby to begin the process of showing them that men aren't evil

Sounds pretty "Wonderful" to me. And easily on par with ANYTHING Jimenz, Rucka, Simone, or even PEREZ ever did.

"Angsty?" She hasn't been angsty even once in this story. She's been kind, compassionate, brave, and very level-headed and in-control. I can't point to ONE really serious "angsty" moment in the entire run.

[Vanguard-01]

Beats me. I didn't read Secret Six.

Yes, Gail did say it was only some Banas who did all the bad stuff. Sadly that doesn't make much sense, since Amazon's Attack showed us large-scale shots of what looks like the entire Amazon army attacking civilians.

It was a desperate effort on Gail's part to exonerate the Amazons and it ONLY works if you choose to IGNORE those large-scale scenes and just force yourself to accept Gail's explanation.