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  1. #1726
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by responsarbre View Post
    I've been thinking this forever! I think there are a lot of missed opportunities in general when it comes to the X-Men and minority characters, but Monet being French-Algerian puts her in a really unique place. She definitely has experiences with that racism and she probably feels some type of way about it.

    I've always thought it would be cool for Monet to interact with an AU version of herself that didn't have the same privileged upbringing or didn't grow up in Monaco. Would 'Mouna Chekroune' have a different attitude than Monet St. Croix?
    There's just so much to explore with monet identity and g willow arc in x-men vol. 4 left so many opportunities for writers to continue exploring her family history and identity but they'd rather focus on emplate abusing her again or pairing her up with garbage male characters. L'indigénat started in algeria and independence was won with guerrilla warfare so it would be super interesting to see how algeria history affects monet pov via-à-vis mutant activism and which methods should the x-men use. A personal headcanon of mine is that monet is actually her second name and her first name is actually algerican/maghrebi and she prefer monet because of childhood bullying. Did I mention i really want her 17 white names to be retconed? As well as the twin claudette name because its ugly and incredibly outdated. Seriously tho only old french grandmothers have the name claudette.

  2. #1727
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Keep kelly thompson far away from monet please. She'd 100% ignore of all monet character growth to write her as some bitchy/sassy brawler like she's currently writing rogue and america. She even said it in a podcast (jay & miles xplain the x-men i think) how she "loved rogue in x-men legacy but it didn't feel like rogue she knows and loves from the 90's". All of rainbow rowell books are littered with racism and "i'm not like other girls" tropes plus she trash the female x-men in one of her books so... I'd love to see Mariko tamaki, leah williams, saladin ahmed, g willow or even seanan mcguire write an all female x-book again that's character oriented
    Saladin Ahmed has some kind of project coming up. Maybe he'll get Monet. He likes to represent characters of color. So Monet may not be whitewashed with him. She's also Muslim like him, so he'd be perfect for expanding on that part of her heritage. I liked his expansion on Blink, so he'd probably do great with Monet. If he's given actual chance. hell if Weapon X lasted 27 chapters, as crappy as that was, no reason SA should be short-changed.

  3. #1728
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Saladin Ahmed has some kind of project coming up. Maybe he'll get Monet. He likes to represent characters of color. So Monet may not be whitewashed with him. She's also Muslim like him, so he'd be perfect for expanding on that part of her heritage. I liked his expansion on Blink, so he'd probably do great with Monet. If he's given actual chance. hell if Weapon X lasted 27 chapters, as crappy as that was, no reason SA should be short-changed.
    Exiles is getting cancelled after #12 and he's writing ms marvel in march. I do hope he gets an x-men book soon and gets to write monet

  4. #1729
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Uh how does that relate to perfection???
    That sounds incredibly fetishing of mixed people tbh.........

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post

    yAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAssssss
    This is so damn truthful it hurts
    There's so much to unpack here lmao. Monet hasn't been "black from day one", she's been described as Algerian from day one yet you lot conveniently forget that lol. Whether you like it or not Monet is canonically Algerian since her first appearance and has been written as algerian by every writer who wrote her in every book she was in. I know this is a tricky subject with colourism being prevalent in comics (especially in this thread with members who love to whitewash everything) but Monet isn't like storm, sunspot or idie who have been drawn darkskin since their first appearances and later inked lighter, Monet was coloured with brown skin with a tone similar to Rihanna's and Iman Hammam in her first appearances and most of gen x and inked a handful of times darkskin.

    I'm tired of people who can't even do the basic research on Algeria speaking on Monet's ethnicity. From wikipedia: "Despite the dominance of the Berber culture and ethnicity in Algeria, the majority of Algerians identify with an Arab-based identity, especially after the Arab nationalism rising in the 20th century. Berbers and Berber-speaking Algerians are divided into many groups with varying languages. The largest of these are the Kabyles, who live in the Kabylie region east of Algiers, the Chaoui of Northeast Algeria, the Tuaregs in the southern desert and the Shenwa people of North Algeria". Now it's not exactly true that the majority of algerians identify as arab, there is a prevalence of algerian identifying as arab but the majority identify as a mixed amazigh-arab identity. Just because someone has brown skin and curly hair don't make them black. Blackness isn't just about phenotype, it's also about racialisation. Monet growing up in France/Monaco and being of Algerian origin was racialised as maghrebi/arab (arab in france, french speaking belgium and most of western europe means north african the same way asian means south asian in the uk. that does not mean north africa/the maghreb is arab).

    I'm tired of seeing people erase Monet's canon Algerian identity by claiming "she was made algerian because her creator picked a random country in africa", it's incredibly insulting as a north african seeing your only positive representation in mainstream pop culture being erased of background all because she doesn't fit people narrow understanding of ethnicity/race. It's extremely offensive and hurtful having the only canon north african hero in western media that you identify with ripped away from you to reinforce the stereotype that blackness and africa are a monolith when in fact africa is the most diverse continent on earth. Plus it's disparaging to native black algerian/north african to be erased like that by implying you must be either black or algerian and that black african only exist through interracial relationships.

    tl;dr stop tossing aside monet canon algerian identity. she's been algerian for 25 years and its not incidental that she's a french algerian considering over 16% of french immigrants are algerians and its estimated that over 10% of the french population has north african origins. There's is a big algerian/north african community in france and just because you personally don't know anything about algeria doesn't mean its not an important aspect of monet's characterisation and identity.

  5. #1730
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    keep Kelly Thompson and Ahmed away from Monet, she deserves a good writer

  6. #1731
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    That sounds incredibly fetishing of mixed people tbh.........
    lol right??

    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post

    There's so much to unpack here lmao. Monet hasn't been "black from day one", she's been described as Algerian from day one yet you lot conveniently forget that lol. Whether you like it or not Monet is canonically Algerian since her first appearance and has been written as algerian by every writer who wrote her in every book she was in. I know this is a tricky subject with colourism being prevalent in comics (especially in this thread with members who love to whitewash everything) but Monet isn't like storm, sunspot or idie who have been drawn darkskin since their first appearances and later inked lighter, Monet was coloured with brown skin with a tone similar to Rihanna's and Iman Hammam in her first appearances and most of gen x and inked a handful of times darkskin.
    .
    Buuuuut I'm not saying shes not Algerian.
    Confusing cause you used 2 real world examples of black chicks to explain M's looks

  7. #1732
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Buuuuut I'm not saying shes not Algerian.
    you never once mentioned it when talking about her identity. guess there's a thin line between erasure and not mentioning?

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Confusing cause you used 2 real world examples of black chicks to explain M's looks
    Omg imagine willing missing the point that much. Iman Hamman is also north african yet again you ignore that fact. I compared her skin tone the the one of two famous people who have naturally tan/brown skin. If i had said she had the same skin tone as priyanka chopra and tommy genesis you would have said why compare her skin to two indians she's african lmao

  8. #1733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Saladin Ahmed has some kind of project coming up. Maybe he'll get Monet. He likes to represent characters of color. So Monet may not be whitewashed with him. She's also Muslim like him, so he'd be perfect for expanding on that part of her heritage. I liked his expansion on Blink, so he'd probably do great with Monet. If he's given actual chance. hell if Weapon X lasted 27 chapters, as crappy as that was, no reason SA should be short-changed.
    Well officially she's Muslim but I think that's about as far as we've seen M go in that respect...

  9. #1734
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    you never once mentioned it when talking about her identity. guess there's a thin line between erasure and not mentioning?
    Nobody denies her being Algerian. But is that a race? This is the thing people bump heads over. If I said someone's not white because they're French, it wouldn't make sense, because one doesn't have anything to do with the other. Being a citizen of France makes you French.

    Or stating that someone isn't black because they're Brazilian. Again, they aren't connected. There's white & black Brazilians , and I believe it was noted Brazil has one of the largest black populations next to places like Nigeria.

    So even though we call Monet black, we're not saying she's not anything else. Except white lol We consider her a black North African.

    Iman Bowie is African, and she identifies as a black woman.

    The topic can become controversial due to everyone being different. Iman doesn't have full features or curly hair, but is still a black woman.

    But people referring to her as black aren't denying her African & Somali background. It just wouldn't come up when speaking about her race. When talking about her culture / Ethnicity and nationality, it would be brought up.

    So, though the terms are a bit simplified, the races are mainly seen as Black, White, Asian, and Mixed / Multi. Then to make matters more simple, there's the one-drop rule. Some mixed people look more black, and may identify & be seen as such. Some mixed people look white, and same thing. Then there's some who are right in the middle and won't be dropped as they evenly look more like both and different people will see different things upon looking.

    The Iman you mentioned looks like a light-skinned black woman to me. Others may see her differently.


    And in some pictures, she has looked darker.

    But nobody would be denying her as Arabic-African if they called her black. Unless they incorrectly thought you couldn't be both or that one cancelled out the other.

    Her wiki states she identifies as a woman of the black race rather than middle-Eastern because her heritage is African, not Asian. She then mentions a model she looked up to was Naomi Campbell, who she saw as a strong black woman. But she is very clear about her Arabic heritage because she mentions it's not prominent and she wants to be someone who represents Arab-African women. But again, she's also claimed herself as a woman of the black race.

    She seems like a perfect example of a real-life Monet. Arabic, Muslim, and Moroccan (I think M has been said to be this). And nobody denies all those things about M. But what is her RACE? Those of us saying black aren't denying there's more to her.. We just don't think she is Caucasian, or that she should be colored with fair skin.

    Things get confusing because the word "black" means different things to different people. Asians have been refereed to as black in some cases because all it meant was they had darker skin compared to white people. And some Asians do get pretty dark. But they are still Asian. So usually to make things the least confusing as possible, people do like Iman and classify black as having family and ancestors with roots and origination in Africa -before the colonization started happening.. But there's also other cases, like Aboriginal Australians, who would be classified as black.

    So we are not trying to erase Monet's identity. If anything, we're just adding to it. Some black people identify with her the same way you do. She can be a black North African & represent many different sides. like Iman H. A black Arab woman. A black Algerian woman. A black North African woman. Whether you use black as the race and / or color, Monet ought to be in that category. She had brown skin from day one. She was not fair-skinned and they need to stop coloring her as such. Let her stay a beautiful brown woman.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 12-18-2018 at 06:40 AM.

  10. #1735
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Nobody denies her being Algerian. But is that a race? This is the thing people bump heads over. If I said someone's not white because they're French, it wouldn't make sense, because one doesn't have anything to do with the other. Being a citizen of France makes you French.

    Or stating that someone isn't black because they're Brazilian. Again, they aren't connected. There's white & black Brazilians , and I believe it was noted Brazil has one of the largest black populations next to places like Nigeria.

    So even though we call Monet black, we're not saying she's not anything else. Except white lol We consider her a black North African.

    The other Iman is African, and she has identified as a black woman.


    The topic can become controversial due to everyone being different. Iman doesn't have full features & curly hair, but is still a black woman.

    But people referring to her as black aren't denying her African & Somali background. It just wouldn't come up when speaking about her race. When talking about her culture / Ethnicity and nationality, it would be brought up.

    So, though the terms are a bit simplified, the races are mainly see. Black, White, Asian, and Mixed / Multi. Then to make matters more simple, there's the one-drop rule where you're whatever race seems more prominent in your make-up. Some mixed people look more black, and may identify & be seen as such. Then some mixed people look white, and same thing. Then there's some who are right in the middle and won't be dropped as they evenly look more mixed, rather than leaning more toward one side.

    The girl you mentioned, the other Iman. Looking at her pictures, she looks like a light-skinned black woman. But that's just me. Others may see her differently.


    And in some pix, she has looked more dark.


    But nobody would be denying her as Arabic-African if they called her black. Unless they didn't think you could be both.

    Her wiki states she's identified as a woman of the black race rather than middle-Eastern because her heritage is African, not Asian. She then mentions a model she looked up to was Naomi Campbell, who she saw as a powerful black woman. But she is very clear about her Arabic heritage & culture because she mentions it's not prominent and she wants to be someone who represents Arab-African girls & women -someone for those fellow woman to look up to.

    She seems like a perfect example of a real-life Monet. Arabic, Muslim, and Moroccan (I think M has been said to be this). Sadly, I think the French part is missing. But pretty close if not for that. And nobody denies all those things about M. But what is her RACE? Those of us saying black aren't denying other parts. We just don't think she is a Caucasian woman, or that she should be colored with fair skin. Like Weapon X where people complained she was white, instead of being brown with black hair.

    Things get confusing because the word "black" means different things to different people. Asians have been refereed to as black in some cases because all it meant was they had darker skin compared to white people. And some Asians do get pretty dark. But they are still Asian. So usually to make things the least confusing as possible, people do like Iman and classify black as having family and ancestors with roots and origination in Africa. But there's also other cases, like Aboriginal Australians, who would be classified as black.

    So we are not trying to ERASE Monet's identity. Some black people identify with her the same way you do. She can be a black North African. And represent both sides like Iman does. We just don't see her as Caucasian. Whether you use black as the race, coloring, or both, Monet ought to be in that category. She had brown skin from day one. She was not fair-skinned and they need to stop coloring her as such. Let her stay a beautiful brown woman.
    Ugghh
    Soooooooooooooooo eloquent lol

  11. #1736
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Ugghh
    Soooooooooooooooo eloquent lol
    Thanks. We're not saying Monet is African American. I guess she would be in the sense she's a citizen of both. But she'd also be Afro-French and probably Afro-Arab. Monet has many different citizenships as a black woman

    When we first saw her father, he was black.
    Annual 1 1995 Father.jpg
    I think this was his first appearance. If I am wrong, I will gladly retract this statement.

    So I don't begrudge Monet as African, Arab, or both African-Arab. I would just classify her as black in addition to it. The way both Imans identify as black in addition to their African & Arab heritage. So for some of is, Monet = Racial Black with African, Muslim, and Arab heritage / Ethnicity.

    I don't mind Monet being dark or light brown. But I think she needs to stay BROWN. When this starts happening, they've lost me.
    White Monet.jpg
    That's a Caucasian woman, which Monet was NOT when she was created.

    Weapon X went back & forth on it. Sometimes Monet was appropriately brown. But a lot of the time, she was almost the same color as Deathstrike.
    Monet vs. Deathstrike.jpg

    In racial debates, nobody brings up her Muslism or Algerian parts because there's no argument. Her being Muslim & Algerian has come straight from her mouth on a few different occasion. There's no room for confusion there. Her heritage has been given & canonized. However, her race hasn't. But given how she looked when she was first introduced on-panel, she did appear to be drawn with features that are general considered to be associated more with black people. Such as the wide nose and big lips. And while she didn't have wild her, they did allow a bit of curl to it. As much as they were going to anyway. So given all these combinations, many do consider her having started off as a black woman.

    But again, that doesn't erase her being Algerian or Muslim -even Arab. But those things aren't argued. It's when fans classify her as black that people argue because somehow it's not possible for black people to exist in Arab, Algerian, or Muslim culture. Or at least is the way some act if she's referred to as such. People can't wait to rush in and talk about how she's not, never was, or isn't supposed to be black because she's North African -which we disagree with.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 12-18-2018 at 06:18 AM.

  12. #1737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post

    But again, that doesn't erase her being Algerian or Muslim -even Arab. But those things aren't argued. It's when fans classify her as black that people argue because somehow it's not possible for black people to exist in Arab, Algerian, or Muslim culture. Or at least is the way some act if she's referred to as such. People can't wait to rush in and talk about how she's not, never was, or isn't supposed to be black because she's North African -which we disagree with.
    It isn't that black people don't exist in those cultures, but people here tend to say "She's black" and completely dismiss that she represents Arabs, Algerians, and Muslims.

    There are many strong black female characters in comics...there aren't many Arab, Algerian, Muslims in mainstream comics. Monet's powers make her the perfect mutant, but she's also the prefect representation for diversity in comics. And it goes beyond the usual binary black/white arguments. Marvel lacks representation from across the spectrum of colors.

  13. #1738
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteQueenEmmaFrost View Post
    It isn't that black people don't exist in those cultures, but people here tend to say "She's black" and completely dismiss that she represents Arabs, Algerians, and Muslims.

    There are many strong black female characters in comics...there aren't many Arab, Algerian, Muslims in mainstream comics. Monet's powers make her the perfect mutant, but she's also the prefect representation for diversity in comics. And it goes beyond the usual binary black/white arguments. Marvel lacks representation from across the spectrum of colors.
    I haven't seen anyone dismiss her as Arab, Muslim, or Algerian. I don't think anyone said she wasn't those things, or shouldn't be those things. Though I do recall people saying it wasn't represented well and came off like a gimmick with some of Peter David's writing in X-Factor. It could stand to be done better.

    But her being black is widely dismissed & argued with. The X-Men only have Storm has their token black character. Bishop only recently came back after considerable character assassination. Meanwhile all the others are unused, Then we have Monet, who is recognized as Algerian & Muslim. But she keeps getting whitened, and it's being black that lots of people seems to to wanna argue with or say she can't be, or never was.

    Does saying she's black somehow dismiss all the other stuff that's apart of her heritage? No. As a said, she can be a black woman with this heritages. because none of those things are races. Nothing gets cancelled out. So that being the case, where is the issue in saying she's black?

    But given the arguments some have & the supposed offense taken at calling her black, it does come off like some just don't want her to be black because because it ruins & cheapens the other (better) parts of her heritage. Being black would just ruin her I guess. lol

    When it comes to mutli-raced or cultured characters, different people can feel closer to whatever represents them. If you're Algerian, Monet is a big part of your Algerian representation. If you're Muslim or Arab, same thing. Those parts are big for whichever you are. And for black comics readers, it's the same. But it's only black fans claiming Monet for representation on the black side that seems to be Blasphemous & insulting. Despite nobody dismisses or shaming her heritage by classifying her as such. I see more nonacceptance for her being black than I ever did for anything else.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 12-18-2018 at 08:57 AM.

  14. #1739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    I haven't seen anyone dismiss her as Arab, Muslim, or Algerian. I don't think anyone said she wasn't those things, or shouldn't be those things. Though I do recall people saying it wasn't represented well and came off like a gimmick with some of Peter David's writing in X-Factor.

    But her being black is widely dismissed & argued with. The X-Men only have Storm has their token black character. Bishop only recently came back & considerable character assassination. Meanwhile all the others are unused, Then we have Monet, he is recognized as Algerian & Muslim. But she keeps getting whited, and it's being black that lots of people seems to to wanna argue with or say she can't be, or never was.
    Most of the time both parties are going by how she's drawn...and even her father's skin tone fluctuates. I don't think it's a good idea to look at what's on the page and say "this person is this or that" because comic art is often crappy and most of the time it's some white man drawing/coloring.

    Skin tone isn't really cannon if it were she'd be white lol

  15. #1740
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteQueenEmmaFrost View Post
    Most of the time both parties are going by how she's drawn...and even her father's skin tone fluctuates. I don't think it's a good idea to look at what's on the page and say "this person is this or that" because comic art is often crappy and most of the time it's some white man drawing/coloring.

    Skin tone isn't really cannon if it were she'd be white lol
    Ok. Well where was she stated to be Arab? If she has said it, my apologies. but if she hasn't said it, then that would be an assumption. And we have more cases of seeing her black that we did her being acknowledged as Arab anywhere. She's said she's Algerian & Muslim. Then she only claimed to be Muslim because "most Algerians are Muslim, do the math." So because her mom was Algerian and possibly Muslim, she must be too. Doesn't sound very sincere. So her Muslim side was treated very flippantly.

    Most go on how she looked when she was created. Any deviation is not accurate. Whether they make her lighter or darker. But inconsistency in art is very different than race-changing a character. Character's looks can fluctuate, but still stay the same at the core. It's only brown characters who seem to have to say they're black to be worth anything, counted, and not whitewashed or dismissed. When it comes to black characters in fiction, they are depicted as Monet was in Phalanx Covenant. Wide nose, full lips, brown skin, and as curly hair as they'd let her have since America hates kinky hair. I doubt all of that was supposed to be showing her as a white girl. So this is what I mean. even clear times when Monet is drawn as black, the black fans are told "she never said it, so it's not true." And her being black is dismissed whenever it suits someone because she never announced it. But we fans know how she was intended when she first came on the comic scene in the 90's. That was how her creator envisioned and had her depicted. Marvel editors not doing their job & allowing the whitewashing of characters doesn't change that.

    The Bible has noted that Jesus was a man with dark skin & hair like sheep wool. And he's still shown as a white man with straight hair in ALL his depictions. lol Cleopatra was depicted in ancient Egyptian paintings as a woman with full features. & brown skin. But she's always played by white woman. That's how common whitewashing is. And plenty feel no shame outright ignoring accuracy. Even when the opposite is stated.

    Every black character in fiction has not announced their blackness. If we have to wait & hear it, then damn near nobody is black & can be changed whenever someone wants because not like they announced it. Did Triage ever announce himself as a black man? If not, then he must not be. Has Wolverine ever announced he was a white man? He hasn't. So if someone wanted to depict him looking like Bishop, it'd be ok. Because he never declared anything, right?

    So again, my point is validated here. Black characters have to prove their blackness, even if they are drawn as such. So Monet is not & can't be black, and we black fans don't have the right to corrupt her. And by calling her black, we're just dismissive & unreasonable. Even if we accept and never denied she has more to her. But the latter doesn't matter. By calling her black, we've denied everything else and ruined her representation for those other things. Shame on us!!!!

    So again, everyone sees her as Algerian & Muslim. Nobody argues or sees issues with that. It's people who hate the idea of her being black that I see a lot of. And it's black that is treated more dismissively.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 12-18-2018 at 10:22 AM.

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