Mary-Jane In The Sam Raimi Trilogy

[RD!]

But my biggest problem is that Mary Jane felt, in character, like Gwen with a few MJ characteristics tossed in the mixing bowl. Gwen, the model, acted way more like Mary Jane than Gwen. They had the two characters backwards.

This is what I think. In my Raimi-verse, Peter and MJ's hug at the end of Spider-Man 3 is goodbye. He then enjoys being single for a while, gets reacquainted with himself and eventually patches things up with Gwen, living happily ever after.

[Sardorim]

She wasn't all that good as the character....

This is what I think. In my Raimi-verse, Peter and MJ's hug at the end of Spider-Man 3 is goodbye. He then enjoys being single for a while, gets reacquainted with himself and eventually patches things up with Gwen, living happily ever after.

That's if you ignore the other movies and the characters themselves as it makes no sense for them not to be together after SM3.

They didn't even allow a Peter/Gwen in ASM Reboot and it'll end up as Peter/MJ as well.

[FN Spider-Man]

Emma Stone would've made an awesome MJ

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

This is what I think. In my Raimi-verse, Peter and MJ's hug at the end of Spider-Man 3 is goodbye. He then enjoys being single for a while, gets reacquainted with himself and eventually patches things up with Gwen, living happily ever after.

Unfortunately for this theory, Raimi's continuation of their story after Spider-Man 3 had Peter and MJ not only get back together, but get married and have a kid.

[John Venus]

While I do agree with a lot of this, except for the fact she wasn't a bitch. I'm not talking about Spider-Man 3 so much as Spider-Man 2. It isn't just the fact that MJ is getting married but she keeps toying with Peter. And, as for the help she tried to give to Spider-Man, none of those times really did much at all. Doc Ock took her down. With her, the children would've still been safe. And Venom still managed to apprehend Spider-Man where he was smashed nearly to death by Sandman. And, sure, having many boyfriends isn't a bad thing but for every change in relationship, she cheated on ALL of them or AT LEAST tried to. But my biggest problem is that Mary Jane felt, in character, like Gwen with a few MJ characteristics tossed in the mixing bowl. Gwen, the model, acted way more like Mary Jane than Gwen. They had the two characters backwards.

I hated how in Spider-Man 2 she left John on the altar for Peter, and that's by far the biggest flaw of the entire film for me. All that time being in a relationship with John, enough to marry him, she just slips away, smiling as she runs off to Peter with no signs of doubt or anguish. As an audience we're meant to see it as a good thing, and it doesn't ring right with me.

Then again, I didn't hate her character. She wasn't an amazing character but she was believable enough for me.

This. I agree. I actually enjoyed her in the first movie. But how she used John(who seemed to be a good guy and appreciated MJ for who she was in the few scenes she was ) in order to get Peter and toy with his emotions as well. Peter was kind of clueless in the third movie(although he did try), and I did sympathize with her. But honestly both Peter and MJ were in the wrong in terms of the relationship( Peter go and kiss his best friend’s girlfriend, cheat on his girlfriend while she was in the audience, and keep secrets from everyone while shaming them for not being 100% truthful towards him, using Gwen to get back at MJ). The symbiote was just increasing Peter's aggression/negative qualities so more or less Peter was in control he was just a jerk. But two wrongs don't make a right, they both weren't right for each other. To me after the first movie, she was far inferior and different to the 616 or Ultimate MJ for my tastes, imo.

Movie MJ cheats on Harry with Spider-Man, cheats on Peter with Harry, cheats on John with Peter, and then finally drops John on the altar. Kirsten Dunst sure has her moments during the saga but the way the character was written was horrible. Peter should've realised that what he felt for MJ was much more of an obsession than real love.

She left a perfectly decent guy AT THE ALTER!! She agreed to marry him when she wasn't completely sure of her feelings, then she left him on their wedding day, at the alter, and she literally was wearing her damn wedding dress at the time. When they show the look on his face, man did I feel bad for that guy. And then they didn't even have the decent to address the ramifications of that choice in SM 3. It has nothing to do with "slut shaming," it's her being a selfish. And that fact that the movie plays it like it's this great and triumphant moment and we're supposed to root for her and Peter, no just no. It's a horrible scene that only serves to make me hate both of them and feel really bad for the other guy. And that's Raimi's MJ in a nutshell, selfish, self-absorbed, judgmental, whiny, inconsiderate, hypocritical, and indecisive. You know how many of those qualities fit the actual MJ, NONE!! Her character was written horribly in those films and that entire so-called romance was toxic.

I was going to add a post but these here pretty much sum up my stance. These guys have said it better than I can.

I loved the Raimi movies when it came out because 'OMG SPIDER-MAN'S ON SCREEN' but they fell apart the older I got and the more I scrutinized them.

It's been a long time since I've seen these movies so prior apologies to any errors on the following but I'd try to base it on as much facts as I can remember:

MJ in the movies wasn't a spit fire, fiery red head who provided a contrast to Peter and whose cheerfulness was also a mask which she used to hide from her abusive household. I also don't recall scenes where she was emotionally supportive of Pete and certainly no scenes of her beating super villains with base ball bats. Though feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I grew up watching too many crappy soap operas and thus developed a litmus test for determining a good romance: is the relationship mutually beneficial? Are they more miserable together than they ever where when they were apart? Tony/Pepper and Steve/Peggy from the MCU passes the test because I can see why they are together and how their relationships have helped them. With Spider-man, romantic drama comes with the territory but it's okay if the character's are still finding happiness with each other despite the problems they face and they would be worse off without each other but if they are miserable with each other and are better off being single or with someone else then we have a problem. Then it becomes romantic drama for the sake of romantic drama.

Of course, there were additional problems such as her leaving John Jameson in the altar and his pain played for laughs by JJJ and her reuniting with Peter played as a triumphant scene. Then you had, Peter whom after deciding to retire from his identity willfully ignores a man who is getting beaten in an alley because he would rather live a normal life. If you want me to support a romance, you have to make me not be morally outraged with the characters.

[Blacksun]

She left a perfectly decent guy AT THE ALTER!!

what? no woman is obligated to marry a guy because he is perfectly decent. oh this nice guy syndrome.

While the part isn't written perfectly, I don't think the character is as horrible as she is made out to be. The movie suffers from an over-romanticizing of, well, romance. But this isn't something that is specifically the original trilogy's fault. A lot of films simply focus on the hero being obsessed with the female love interest as a substitute for genuine affection. Just off the top of my head, Slumdog Millionaire has the same problem- the protagonist is in love with his love interest from childhood, and little other reason is given for that relationship. Is it something that detracts from the film? Yes. Is it something that is specifically the fault of MJ, her character and her actress? No.

I think that, regardless of how she were to be portrayed, there would be those that were going to be critical of her character. I don't think it's controversial to say that MJ and her character do have a fair number of detractors, and unfortunately quite a few of them seem quite unwarranted. The character is blamed for things she never did in the mythos, or her contributions are diminished or outright ignored. The problem for the Raimi movies isn't that MJ's character was bad or that the actress did a poor job. It's that they were popular, and promoted MJ to a position within the popular mythos that some are not comfortable with- that of Spider-Man's girl. Of his key love interest, his Lois Lane. So her performance and her character are criticized in retrospect, to diminish the quality of the work overall and to potentially diminish the importance of her character within the mythos altogether.

In regards to her relationships in the film, I feel that some of this comes off- for lack of a better term- of slut shamming. Some of the criticism I heard was that she was attached to every single male character in the films. While she did have her fair share of love interests, I don't believe that this is somehow a detriment to her character. She dates Flash at the beginning, but she breaks it off with him during graduation. She's not seen cheating on him or anything. She dates Harry, but it's not shown to be a very healthy relationship. As others have pointed out, he tries to tell her what to wear, and she feels she would look down on her if he were to find out she was working as a waitress (Peter, on the other hand, is quite accepting of this and understanding). And I didn't find it that unreasonable that she would be attracted to Spider-Man. In the second film, MJ does move on with her life and start dating John Jameson. But I personally don't find her relationship with him that unreasonable. She cared for Peter, but was smart enough not to wait around for him to get his act together or tell her his feelings. She was conflicted. She loved Peter, but John presented a good future for her. She didn't really find out until the end of the second film as to why Peter was standoffish, and after which she finally understood why he wouldn't get close to her. That's why I don't find her leaving John at the alter to be that reprehensible. She understands at that point why Peter wasn't pursuing a relationship with her, so she was letting him know that she was OK with the risks he was taking. It was a brave step for her to say that the choice was hers, and she wanted to be in a relationship with Peter and he doesn't have to deal with his burden alone.

I like your analysis. I think she suffers more backlash because she is a Flawed character. you know make mistakes. but is a woman
she went for her own happiness and did what was right for her, marry because a guy is nice wouldn't be right for her or him. Specially her knowing what was going on with peter

[RD!]

Unfortunately for this theory, Raimi's continuation of their story after Spider-Man 3 had Peter and MJ not only get back together, but get married and have a kid.

If there's no movie it doesn't count.

I was going to add a post but these here pretty much sum up my stance. These guys have said it better than I can.

I loved the Raimi movies when it came out because 'OMG SPIDER-MAN'S ON SCREEN' but they fell apart the older I got and the more I scrutinized them.

It's been a long time since I've seen these movies so prior apologies to any errors on the following but I'd try to base it on as much facts as I can remember:

MJ in the movies wasn't a spit fire, fiery red head who provided a contrast to Peter and whose cheerfulness was also a mask which she used to hide from her abusive household. I also don't recall scenes where she was emotionally supportive of Pete and certainly no scenes of her beating super villains with base ball bats. Though feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I grew up watching too many crappy soap operas and thus developed a litmus test for determining a good romance: is the relationship mutually beneficial? Are they more miserable together than they ever where when they were apart? Tony/Pepper and Steve/Peggy from the MCU passes the test because I can see why they are together and how their relationships have helped them. With Spider-man, romantic drama comes with the territory but it's okay if the character's are still finding happiness with each other despite the problems they face and they would be worse off without each other but if they are miserable with each other and are better off being single or with someone else then we have a problem. Then it becomes romantic drama for the sake of romantic drama.

Of course, there were additional problems such as her leaving John Jameson in the altar and his pain played for laughs by JJJ and her reuniting with Peter played as a triumphant scene. Then you had, Peter whom after deciding to retire from his identity willfully ignores a man who is getting beaten in an alley because he would rather live a normal life. If you want me to support a romance, you have to make me not be morally outraged with the characters.

Great post.

I'll always like the Raimi movies because they opened the way for the MCU and the Webb movies, but the more I think back to them the more I understand that they just weren't that good. I'll always like them because I grew up with them, and they got some things right but MJ was horrible.

With Gwen from ASM1 and 2 being so close to MJ from the comics, I do wonder how they'll portray MJ in the movies to make her stand apart from Gwen.

My guess is she'll be really fiery, like Ultimate Gwen, and as she mellows and gets to know Peter she'll transition to how 616 MJ generally is.

[Punisher007]

what? no woman is obligated to marry a guy because he is perfectly decent. oh this nice guy syndrome.



I like your analysis. I think she suffers more backlash because she is a Flawed character. you know make mistakes. but is a woman
she went for her own happiness and did what was right for her, marry because a guy is nice wouldn't be right for her or him. Specially her knowing what was going on with peter

No they're not. But then don't agree to marry him unless you're absolutely sure or your feelings towards him. And then don't wait till the day of your wedding, when he's standing at the alter in front of all of his (and your) friends and family, to decide that you made a mistake and run into the arms of another man while still wearing your freaking wedding dress and not bother to tell him. She just left him standing there in front of everyone, including his father and Peter's boos, humiliated and heartbroken. And never ONCE does she show even the slightest hint of regret or remorse for the way that she treated or used him and we're supposed to be on her side, no not going to happen. That's callousness on an astounding scale. It's not fair to him and makes her look like a selfish callous jerk. Call the wedding off beforehand and explain the situation to him. It'll be hard, but it's damn-sure better than what she actually did. It's not that she didn't marry him that's the problem, it's how she chose to go about it that makes her a horrible person. The fact that he was such a nice guy is merely icing on the cake because she doesn't even have the excuse of "he was a jerk" to shield her.

[RD!]

She was conflicted. She loved Peter, but John presented a good future for her. She didn't really find out until the end of the second film as to why Peter was standoffish, and after which she finally understood why he wouldn't get close to her. That's why I don't find her leaving John at the alter to be that reprehensible. She understands at that point why Peter wasn't pursuing a relationship with her, so she was letting him know that she was OK with the risks he was taking. It was a brave step for her to say that the choice was hers, and she wanted to be in a relationship with Peter and he doesn't have to deal with his burden alone.

I have to disagree with you.

MJ is the movies is not a good person. When Flash bullies Peter, she might roll her eyes or say something occasionally but she doesn't really care. She runs off to see Flash's car. She flirts with Peter a lot, leads him on but dates Harry. Then she attacks Harry for not defending her to his father, even though I think he did handle the situation fairly well (from memory).

Later, she gets engaged to a guy she doesn't love and leaves him at the alter.

Those movies were teenage fantasies. The nerdy kid always dreams about getting with the popular girl. But when you grow up, you realise there is literally a world full of hot girls and forget about people like Raimi MJ.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I have to disagree with you.

MJ is the movies is not a good person. When Flash bullies Peter, she might roll her eyes or say something occasionally but she doesn't really care. She runs off to see Flash's car. She flirts with Peter a lot, leads him on but dates Harry. Then she attacks Harry for not defending her to his father, even though I think he did handle the situation fairly well (from memory).

Not immediately solving all of Peter's problems for him doesn't maker her a bad character.

Nor does she belong to Peter. And being nice to him isn't flirting.

Later, she gets engaged to a guy she doesn't love and leaves him at the alter.

While Peter leads her on and isn't straight with her.

Those movies were teenage fantasies. The nerdy kid always dreams about getting with the popular girl. But when you grow up, you realize there is literally a world full of hot girls and forget about people like Raimi MJ.

The world doesn't really seem to be forgetting her. It seems more like people trying to diminish her character because they don't like her in hopes that the comic book Peter will hook up with someone else they prefer.

[John Venus]

what? no woman is obligated to marry a guy because he is perfectly decent. oh this nice guy syndrome.

I like your analysis. I think she suffers more backlash because she is a Flawed character. you know make mistakes. but is a woman
she went for her own happiness and did what was right for her, marry because a guy is nice wouldn't be right for her or him. Specially her knowing what was going on with peter

That's not what's happening; she said 'yes' to John and said she was going marry him. Then she leaves him at the altar after finding out Peter's alter ego. Yes, MJ is free to pursue her freedom and love, that's not what's wrong here, what's wrong here is telling a man she is going to marry him despite being conflicted and then leaving that man at the altar to go for another man.

This is not about whether John was nice or not, it's about trust and giving your word. Marriage is a huge commitment and leaving at the last minute like that is a huge betrayal. The writers should have handled it differently instead of making it look like a celebratory event.

There is a point where 'flawed' just crosses over to 'plain bad writing' and twists the characters into horrible people despite the intentions of the writer.

While Peter leads her on and isn't straight with her.

And that's as bad as humiliating John at his own wedding and breaking his heart after saying for months she is going to marry him?

Look, I like MJ but her portrayal in the Raimi movies were terrible. That wedding scene is the prime example of it. I have no problem with her saying that she is going to pursue someone else because Pete's not straight with her. There is nothing wrong there. What's wrong is abandoning said man at the wedding at the last minute.

Pete has his faults, he did after all willfully ignore a man who was being beaten in an alleyway just so he can live a normal life but this topic is about MJ so of course the ups and downs of her portrayal are more focused on here.

[John Venus]

Great post.

I'll always like the Raimi movies because they opened the way for the MCU and the Webb movies, but the more I think back to them the more I understand that they just weren't that good. I'll always like them because I grew up with them, and they got some things right but MJ was horrible.

With Gwen from ASM1 and 2 being so close to MJ from the comics, I do wonder how they'll portray MJ in the movies to make her stand apart from Gwen.

My guess is she'll be really fiery, like Ultimate Gwen, and as she mellows and gets to know Peter she'll transition to how 616 MJ generally is.

Agreed on the Raimi movies. Other better movies have come out since but it's place in history won't be forgotten.

They could portray Gwen as either being more like her Spectacular Spider-man counterpart or her Ultimate Universe version. MJ can still be like her 616 portrayal since the Raimi movies weren't all that close to the comics or they could go with the Ultimate version (which I would prefer) to create a greater distinction between the versions. If the Spidey movies get rebooted again, I'd rather they don't play the secret identity melodrama to death and have Peter and MJ be confidants as they were in early Ultimate Spider-man comics.

[RD!]

The world doesn't really seem to be forgetting her. It seems more like people trying to diminish her character because they don't like her in hopes that the comic book Peter will hook up with someone else they prefer.

I'm a huge fan of COMIC MJ and would much prefer it if they were still married. That's part of the reason why I hate the Raimi version of the character so much. It did a huge disservice to one of my favourites, especially since that was the largest exposure most people have had to the character.

That's not what's happening; she said 'yes' to John and said she was going marry him. Then she leaves him at the altar after finding out Peter's alter ego. Yes, MJ is free to pursue her freedom and love, that's not what's wrong here, what's wrong here is telling a man she is going to marry him despite being conflicted and then leaving that man at the altar to go for another man.

This is not about whether John was nice or not, it's about trust and giving your word. Marriage is a huge commitment and leaving at the last minute like that is a huge betrayal. The writers should have handled it differently instead of making it look like a celebratory event.

There is a point where 'flawed' just crosses over to 'plain bad writing' and twists the characters into horrible people despite the intentions of the writer.

Well said. SM2 takes place two years after SM1 if I remember correctly (with SM3 only a few months after). So the relationship with John had probably been going on about 18 months or more.

And that's as bad as humiliating John at his own wedding and breaking his heart after saying for month's she is going to marry him?

Look, I like MJ but her portrayal in the Raimi movies was terrible. That wedding scene is the prime example of it. I have no problem with her saying that she is going to pursue someone else because Pete's not straight with her. There is nothing wrong there. What's wrong is abandoning said man at the wedding at the last minute.

Pete has his faults, he did after all willfully ignore a man who was being beaten in an alleyway just so he can live a normal life but this topic is about MJ so of course the ups and downs of her portrayal are more focused on here.

That scene with Peter in the alley is another example of what was wrong with those movies.

And then ASM2 has scenes where Spider-Man walks a little boy home, and people still say that it's not a good movie or that Spider-Man 2 is the best Spider-Man movie made. People are entitled to their opinions, but opinions formed on errors of judgment can be frustrating

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

And that's as bad as humiliating John at his own wedding and breaking his heart after saying for month's she is going to marry him?

Look, I like MJ but her portrayal in the Raimi movies was terrible. That wedding scene is the prime example of it. I have no problem with her saying that she is going to pursue someone else because Pete's not straight with her. There is nothing wrong there. What's wrong is abandoning said man at the wedding at the last minute.

Pete has his faults, he did after all willfully ignore a man who was being beaten in an alleyway just so he can live a normal life but this topic is about MJ so of course the ups and downs of her portrayal are more focused on here.

The reason I don't mind it is that it's due to what makes the most effective dramatic scene. There needs to be tension to MJ's decision of who to go with. There needs to be drama. And that drama is increased if her choice comes down to the wire.

Think about it in terms of a scene in a movie where they are defusing a bomb. It's more dramatic if it comes down to the wire. If the detonation is defused only at the last second. MJ's decision to be with Peter rather than with John does have more dramatic weight if it is shown that she is still torn about the decision right up to her wedding, when she's just about to pull the trigger. She might go through with it and run the risk of never being with Peter again, being with someone she clearly doesn't love (She doesn't exactly speak a lot about how much she loves John in the film, even at one point trying to recreate the scene where she kissed Spider-Man in the previous film). It increases the tension if we see her being torn about her choices, rather than just have her show up on Peter's doorstep and tell him she left John and wants to be with him.

[John Venus]

The reason I don't mind it is that it's due to what makes the most effective dramatic scene. There needs to be tension to MJ's decision of who to go with. There needs to be drama. And that drama is increased if her choice comes down to the wire.

Think about it in terms of a scene in a movie where they are defusing a bomb. It's more dramatic if it comes down to the wire. If the detonation is defused only at the last second. MJ's decision to be with Peter rather than with John does have more dramatic weight if it is shown that she is still torn about the decision right up to her wedding, when she's just about to pull the trigger. She might go through with it and run the risk of never being with Peter again, being with someone she clearly doesn't love (She doesn't exactly speak a lot about how much she loves John in the film, even at one point trying to recreate the scene where she kissed Spider-Man in the previous film). It increases the tension if we see her being torn about her choices, rather than just have her show up on Peter's doorstep and tell him she left John and wants to be with him.

Yeah, that's drama for the sake of drama or Drama Ball as TVtropes calls it. I dislike that because it comes at the expense of the character. You highlight exactly the problem I've been pointing out: the narrative. The narrative wants us to be biting our nails thinking whether or not it will happen and the narrative wants us to think that it's some big triumphant moment when MJ runs back to Peter's arms. However, sometimes a writer does something which sends a message he or she never intended at all when they wrote a particular scene or story. That's exactly what it comes down to with the wedding scene; the author wrings every drama possible from the scene and writes a resolution we are supposed to be rooting for but has the unintended side effect of making the characters look like callous and horrible people.

So yeah, it came down to the last wire but the bomb still blew up in John's face while Peter and MJ were kissing on the side.

I don't believe that that's the only way to have handled the sub plot. I firmly believe that a writer worth his salt could have written it in a way that could have kept them in-character while still managing to ratchet up the drama.