Catch me up: Why is Val with Doom?

[Iron Maiden]

Yes, it happened in Fall of the Hulks. After the Intelligencia captured all the geniuses they were hunting down (Reed, Victor, Hank Pym, T'Challa) they placed them all in a re-engineered version of Doom's Liddleville tech. Victor and Banner were the only ones that realized that they were being drained by the device. When they made their escape, Doom tried to rig the device so that it would increase his IQ but instead Banner tricked him and he got a jolt of feedback from it instead. I don't think getting taking a shot to the head by Red She Hulk right afterwards helped either.

[Ben11345]

Thanks for the answers. I'll have to pick up the fall of the hulks trade and read up on this, I always liked Doom.

[zlbenson]

Ah, right on. Might have to go check that one out.

[Ant-manic]

I don't think that's the case at all. If anything, I think it's more likely that Val is playing Victor a little bit than the other way around.

it can be both. Doom might see her as a possession. and Val might be exploiting his underestimation of her; just like that alternate reality version i mentioned. ultimately, i think Doom just wants to corrupt her. he's marvel's version of Miss Havisham.

Anytime Val is interacting with Reed and Doom, to me at least she always comes off as the person most in control of the situation.

Which isn't to say that I don't think there aren't legitimate feelings between Val and Doom... but to some degree I do feel she's playing him, and her parents for that matter. Though perhaps I give Val too much credit. We'll see.

i don't think Doom has legitimate feelings; besides anger. he nonchalantly skinned his "first love" just for a shot at revenge on someone who hadn't wronged him.

[zlbenson]

i don't think Doom has legitimate feelings; besides anger. he nonchalantly skinned his "first love" just for a shot at revenge on someone who hadn't wronged him.

I don't think this is entirely true - I think his feelings are true, and he has legitimate feelings - that said, his anger and greed have obviously caused him to cast aside those he cared for, for fleeting victories.

This is why it's unwise to leave Valeria in his care, she may think she's playing him - but she can't possibly know the depths of his egomania.

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks for the answers. I'll have to pick up the fall of the hulks trade and read up on this, I always liked Doom.

Ah, right on. Might have to go check that one out.

I found Fall of the Hulks to be a lot of fun. I give props to Hickman for making use of the FOH plot for his Fantastic Four story. It did give Val a bargaining chip. I remember Hickman had to wait a bit to even deal with Doom in his story because he was appearing in FOH and Doomwar around the same time. Victor does appear in flashback only to their college days in Fantastic Four 581-582

[XPac]

it can be both. Doom might see her as a possession. and Val might be exploiting his underestimation of her; just like that alternate reality version i mentioned. ultimately, i think Doom just wants to corrupt her. he's marvel's version of Miss Havisham.



i don't think Doom has legitimate feelings; besides anger. he nonchalantly skinned his "first love" just for a shot at revenge on someone who hadn't wronged him.

I disagree. I think there are indicators that Doom does legitimately care for Val. At the end of Dooms fight with Lang for example, he seemed pretty broken up about her welfare when he thought he hurt her.

Not saying Doom is a snuggly teddy bear or anything, but I think even he is capable of giving a damn about other people.

[Iron Maiden]

I disagree. I think there are indicators that Doom does legitimately care for Val. At the end of Dooms fight with Lang for example, he seemed pretty broken up about her welfare when he thought he hurt her.

Not saying Doom is a snuggly teddy bear or anything, but I think even he is capable of giving a damn about other people.

The first person he went to look for when taking back the throne from Prince Zorba was Boris, who was tossed into prison. Then he proceeded to settle the score with Zorba once and for all.


Hickman's quote about his take on Doom was he cares a lot for his nation and Val. A lot depends on the attitude a writer brings to the story. With Waid, he went pretty much full blown sociopath so you get a story like Unthinkable. Byrne has said he wanted to humanize Doom so then you got the introduction of Kristoff. But even there Victor can go off the rails and the relationship had its ups and downs. But he really must care for Kristoff if he was as spoiled as he seemed in the She Hulk story. And Kristoff has always returned those feelings. When Christos Gage used him in his Spider-Man/Fantastic Four mini Kristoff was justifiably angered because every one had forgotten about him. You could say that was also a bit metatextual about TPTB in Marvel editorial. Kristoff wouldn't be angry if he really didn't care about Victor in return. Victor calls him "son" and Kristoff calls him "father" so that says a lot there. He's making no distinction that Kristoff is not a blood relation.

[Sutekh]

I disagree. I think there are indicators that Doom does legitimately care for Val. At the end of Dooms fight with Lang for example, he seemed pretty broken up about her welfare when he thought he hurt her.

Not saying Doom is a snuggly teddy bear or anything, but I think even he is capable of giving a damn about other people.

Doom has an ironclad sense of what sort of man he is. Whether or not his actions have ever belied this, he is utterly convinced to his core that he is noble, and that his cause is just, and that if he can only complete this latest goal, it will have all been worth it and he'll show them all how wrong they were! Any action he takes that threatens that self-identity, he has to rationalize away, or blame on other people interfering, or foist off on a Doombot acting up. He's convinced himself that he's the misunderstood and persecuted good guy of his own story, and so will act with what he perceives as 'honor' up until the moment he doesn't, and, after that, he'll have a very good excuse for why that 'didn't count.'

(Such as that he has no equals, no peers, and so it doesn't really count as 'betrayal' when he doesn't always follow the terms of an agreement with a lesser person, or an enemy like Richards. It becomes a sign of his superiority that he 'tricked' them or moved them around like pawns. You can't 'betray' an enemy, after all. It's kind of your job to screw them over! You can only ever betray a *friend,* and Doom is above such petty fleeting human connections.)

I think he'll behave like a gentleman to Valeria until the split second he sees an opportunity that is, in his mind, 'more important.' He's got the notion that once he attains whatever power or goal he's seeking, that it will trump any sacrifices he had to make to get there, because he will have the power to make it all right again.

And yet, time and again, such as when he stole the Silver Surfers power cosmic, including abilities like transmutation and healing, which he said he could use to better the world and would use in ways that the Silver Surfer had never imagined, the very first thing he does isn't healing Latverians or turning his country into a paradise or quantum-leaping human evolution, no, he goes on a mad spree of blowing stuff up, ranting like a lunatic, because, whatever else he is, he is Doom, and there's nobody more fundamentally wrong about who they are than he.

He'll never get the tragedy or comedy of his existence.

In recent years, DC has tried to position Lex Luthor in this same vein, constantly talking up how much good he'd do for the world if only Superman wasn't around oppressing him and stuff, and yet, when Superman is gone for a year, Lex just makes everything worse (barring AUs where Doom or Luthor end up in charge and make the world into a shiny utopia...).

Doom did the whole 'hero of my own story' thing first, and better, IMO.

[Pat Thomas]

Doom has an ironclad sense of what sort of man he is. Whether or not his actions have ever belied this, he is utterly convinced to his core that he is noble, and that his cause is just, and that if he can only complete this latest goal, it will have all been worth it and he'll show them all how wrong they were! Any action he takes that threatens that self-identity, he has to rationalize away, or blame on other people interfering, or foist off on a Doombot acting up. He's convinced himself that he's the misunderstood and persecuted good guy of his own story, and so will act with what he perceives as 'honor' up until the moment he doesn't, and, after that, he'll have a very good excuse for why that 'didn't count.'

(Such as that he has no equals, no peers, and so it doesn't really count as 'betrayal' when he doesn't always follow the terms of an agreement with a lesser person, or an enemy like Richards. It becomes a sign of his superiority that he 'tricked' them or moved them around like pawns. You can't 'betray' an enemy, after all. It's kind of your job to screw them over! You can only ever betray a *friend,* and Doom is above such petty fleeting human connections.)

I think he'll behave like a gentleman to Valeria until the split second he sees an opportunity that is, in his mind, 'more important.' He's got the notion that once he attains whatever power or goal he's seeking, that it will trump any sacrifices he had to make to get there, because he will have the power to make it all right again.

And yet, time and again, such as when he stole the Silver Surfers power cosmic, including abilities like transmutation and healing, which he said he could use to better the world and would use in ways that the Silver Surfer had never imagined, the very first thing he does isn't healing Latverians or turning his country into a paradise or quantum-leaping human evolution, no, he goes on a mad spree of blowing stuff up, ranting like a lunatic, because, whatever else he is, he is Doom, and there's nobody more fundamentally wrong about who they are than he.

He'll never get the tragedy or comedy of his existence.

In recent years, DC has tried to position Lex Luthor in this same vein, constantly talking up how much good he'd do for the world if only Superman wasn't around oppressing him and stuff, and yet, when Superman is gone for a year, Lex just makes everything worse (barring AUs where Doom or Luthor end up in charge and make the world into a shiny utopia...).

Doom did the whole 'hero of my own story' thing first, and better, IMO.

Have you read Emperor Doom? The world actually thrives under his control. His boredom causes him to become careless, though. But still, the world isn't on the verge of apocalypse
with Doom in charge. It shows most people doing better, actually.

[XPac]

Have you read Emperor Doom? The world actually thrives under his control. His boredom causes him to become careless, though. But still, the world isn't on the verge of apocalypse
with Doom in charge. It shows most people doing better, actually.

Yeah, Doom has conquered the world twice and did a pretty good job running it afterwards. The nice thing about Doom is he's one of the few villains actually qualified to rule the world if he actually did suceed in conquering it.

[Iron Maiden]

Even Reed has acknowledged that Victor does have administrative skills. When Latveria was brought down to the brink of chaos under Prince Zorba, who let his paranoia get away with him, Reed agreed to allow Victor to rebuild. Heck, it seems like Victor has a better grasp of fiscal responsibility since the Fantastic Four have gone bankrupt a couple of times.

When the Dreaming Celestial turned Franklin's planet into his playground and unleashing floods and feuding fiefdoms all over the planet, Doom brought it to heel under his governance.

[Ant-manic]

I disagree. I think there are indicators that Doom does legitimately care for Val. At the end of Dooms fight with Lang for example, he seemed pretty broken up about her welfare when he thought he hurt her.

Not saying Doom is a snuggly teddy bear or anything, but I think even he is capable of giving a damn about other people.

i think he's just running out of connections to his own humanity. his nature keeps getting the better of him. it's why Wanda Maximoff split. it's why future alternate universe Val conspired against him. it's why Kristoff wanted out. he's losing it. original Valeria didn't even get a proper burial. Val Richards is all he's got. it's a possessive love. she's his 'rosebud.'

[Ant-manic]

Have you read Emperor Doom? The world actually thrives under his control. His boredom causes him to become careless, though. But still, the world isn't on the verge of apocalypse
with Doom in charge. It shows most people doing better, actually.

did you read Emperor Doom? how did you forget about the supression of free will? and nobility flies right out the window when we get to Doom risking everyone's lives because he got bored. he's just a smart monster.

[pageturner]

did you read Emperor Doom? how did you forget about the supression of free will? and nobility flies right out the window when we get to Doom risking everyone's lives because he got bored. he's just a smart monster.

I was going to ask this exact question. It is not really a utopia if no one has a free will.