Should Secret Origin #3 redo Red Robin's origin?

[godisawesome]

It's "Tim Drake," the Olympic level gymnast/computer hacker extraordinaire who gets his parents sent off to the Witness Protection Agency while he became Red Robin, the only superhero identity he ever had.

I'm one of those guys who is extremely disappointed in this new direction, but some actual debates for both why it should and why it shouldn't be changed need to be discussed. Thus far, Secret Origin hasn't changed anything major for the characters it features, though supposedly it did tidy up Nightwing's origin a bit. Now, Scott Lobdell is the writer for this issue's Tim Drake segment, and it will most likely be the last time he controls part of the character. Should he undo or retell his #0 issue story?

I would argue that he should. The new origin suffers both from subpar execution and some serious issues with its conception. The former can kind of be excused; Lobdell was coming off of the Culling and gearing up for Superman, and the issue was clearly written more by the seat of his pants than anything else, as well as clear editorial guidelines and decisions hopping out at him. But the latter sets up several failures for the rest of the story, and are unfortunate roadblocks that should be swept under the rug for Tim Drake.

What do you think?

[M L A]

Tim's nu52 origin is awful. I'm all for a retelling because I doubt it can get much worse than what it is now.

[MajorHoy]

I would say "Yes; New 52 Tim's origin was awful", but the Secret Origins story is still going to be written by Lobdell, isn't it?

If that's the case, what good would it do?

[Jadeb]

I'd like to see him returned to being Tim Drake rather than "Tim Drake," and I could do without the Olympic gymnast business. Just make him a very bright, slightly nerdy kid with a lot of determination.

If they got his personality right, I wouldn't care so much if was ever Robin.

[JasonTodd428]

Funnily enough my main problem with Tim is not his origin but how poorly his character was handled in TT. I suppose some of that is because of the origin but it's also on the writer.

I would drop the WP angle (not that I have a problem with his parent still being alive mind you) from this as well as making his name really be Tim "Drake". It never bothered me that he was never "Robin" because he was still a partner to Batman so the name he chose to operate under at that time is irrelevant to me at least nor does it bother me that he was an Olympic level gymnast. Given the time constraints (ye ole 5 Year timeline) having him come to Batman with a few more skills in place makes a lot of sense to me.

[RobinFan4880]

I still think the troupe of Robins is preferable to training one padawan at time (given the 5 year construct).

Tim deserves to be Robin just as much as Dick, Jason and Damian.

[BloodOps]

Higgins made some changes for Dick in his Secret Origins issue, we can only hope for the same with Lobdell with Tim, hopefully editorial makes him change it.

[MajorHoy]

Higgins made some changes for Dick in his Secret Origins issue, we can only hope for the same with Lobdell with Tim, hopefully editorial makes him change it.

But did Higgins write the origin in Nightwing #0? Both his name and Tom DeFalco were listed in the credits, so it's hard to say where exactly the blame should fall.
(Could even be editorial decisions that were behind it.)

[godisawesome]

Funnily enough my main problem with Tim is not his origin but how poorly his character was handled in TT. I suppose some of that is because of the origin but it's also on the writer.

I would drop the WP angle (not that I have a problem with his parent still being alive mind you) from this as well as making his name really be Tim "Drake". It never bothered me that he was never "Robin" because he was still a partner to Batman so the name he chose to operate under at that time is irrelevant to me at least nor does it bother me that he was an Olympic level gymnast. Given the time constraints (ye ole 5 Year timeline) having him come to Batman with a few more skills in place makes a lot of sense to me.

The thing about the Witness Protection is that it kind of undoes the advantage of bringing his parents back from the dead and really hurts Tim's credibility and character. The idea of the family entering WP is great...provided Tim is still in contact with his family so we get the stuff that made his solo great. Instead, Lobdell used it as an exit stage right so he could keep them away from Tim and only bring them back to be hostages, which kind of made the decision the worst of both worlds; literally the only way Tim interacts with them is if they're hostages, making them The Load instead of characters.

And while I actually like the idea of Dick, Jason, and Tim all having some physical skills before they meet Batman, Tim already had that in his old origin, plus a mechanic for quickly catching up if he threw in some kind of Shiva or other situ style master like in the old continuity, and instead we got an acrobatics thing that smacks of copying Dick Grayson-traits without really fleshing out Tim. The simpler and arguably more practical thing would be to have Tim a student of some martial arts or self defense training, and contrast that with Dick's sheer natural ability and Batman training, or Jason's school of hard knocks street fighting. Heck, martial arts would even emphasize Tim's self-discipline and also make him seem more banal than the others physically speaking (after all, we all know that one guy who actually has some fighting knowledge but is pretty laid back and obviously not an ubër-badass.)

Having said that, the #0 issue was far from the worst Tim issue Lobdell wrote. He was still writing the comic in the modern style back then, and you could feel that he was a little burnt out from the Culling and spit-balling for Tim's origin in comparison to Jason Todd's more straightforward translation. The issue is Lobdell was radically rewriting an origin written by Marv freaking Wolfman and fleshed out by Chuck freaking Dixon over a dozen issues in their prime. And since he's a fairly ambitious writer, he chewed off far more than he could chew and tried to make a new character while dealing with an unhelpful editorial (they should have either held him to a tougher standard, or not make one or two changes than retcon narration and dialogue in seven other books.)

I don't think that Tim's origin is unacceptable if it stands alone in a comic book vacuum, but holistically, compared to both the character's past and his peers and other media appearances, it's a disappointment. So while it might have been an entertaining one shot for some people, it's not strong enough to build a character who's existed for twenty years before hand upon and suffers from the memory of the past, the one thing you really don't want a new variation to do.

Ps: what changes did Higgins make to Nightwing's origin?

[MajorHoy]

. . . what changes did Higgins make to Nightwing's origin?

In Nightwing #0, Dick (in a very Tim-like fashion) figured out Bruce and Batman were the same through observation of similarities . . . it also focused (to me) more on Dick now having parkour talents / experience and less on his gifts as a high wire aerialist.

In Secret Origins, we're back to Dick learning Batman's identity in the more traditional style of Batman telling Dick. (Also, don't remember all the parkour stuff that was in Nightwing #0.)

[Dzetoun]

In Nightwing #0, Dick (in a very Tim-like fashion) figured out Bruce and Batman were the same through observation of similarities . . . it also focused (to me) more on Dick now having parkour talents / experience and less on his gifts as a high wire aerialist.

In Secret Origins, we're back to Dick learning Batman's identity in the more traditional style of Batman telling Dick. (Also, don't remember all the parkour stuff that was in Nightwing #0.)

Also, Nightwing #0 featured the idea of Dick living at the Wayne Care Center and interacting with Bruce and Alfred by having a "part-time job" at the manor. Secret Origins followed Tomasi's Batman and Robin Annual #2 in confining the time at the Wayne Care Center to a very short period and having Dick take the traditional course of moving into the manor and becoming the first of Bruce's "children." Nightwing #0 also featured an encounter with Lady Shiva that Secret Origins leaves out.

[godisawesome]

Cool.

Gives me some hope at least minor, logical changes may be involved in Red Robin's origin.

And remember when Defalco and other creators were all excited for the New 52 Lady Shiva with her killer pony tail and new rivalry with Dick? Yeah....Tynion may get crud for his RHATO run, but he wrote a better Shiva in three panels than all her Nightwing appearances combined.

Kind of wish she got brought back as Tim's trainer. Focusing on the "creator" interpretation of her code name is always cool.

[Godlike13]

You mean the Shiva that got taken out with a single karate chop. Ya, Tynion's Shiva was the shit...

Sorry, but crap doesn't excuse crap.

Honestly im not really even a fan a Shiva, but if they ever want her to be credible again they need to reintroduce her again. Starting with her killing this current version. And then they need to use her as something other then a measuring stick.

[exile001]

I was fine with the new origin. I never liked the original one much, though, despite being a big Tim fan.

I would like Tim to get his old personality and some of his supporting cast back. I also am hoping he will be Robin again at the end of the year.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

Booster is running around with Tim's lost history as Robin in Future's End for a reason...